Please rate Twin Spell

[Shard O'Glase]

sucks, its somewhere between empower and quicken in intent, and like quicken is vastly overpriced at +4 spell levels. I give it a 2.

 

[drnuncheon]

After running the numbers, it looks like Twin Spell gives you a greater chance to affect a target if the roll they need to make on a d20 is between 7 and 15, while Heighten (+4) is better at the extreme ends of the scale.

J

 

[Pax]

A doubly Empowered Fireball does 20d6 as a 7th level spell. A Maximized Magic Missle is 4th level and does 25 points of damage, a fair comparison to your Twinned MM (~35 damage). Of course, Empower works here too.

But, a doubly-empowered Fireball allows only ONE saving throw to halve ALL the damage.

The same fireball, Twinned, requires you to make TWO saving throws, in order to half the final damage total. And that's where Twin has it's benefit -- making people make their saving throw more often, to resist the same effect or damage.

Twinning is very weak and inflexible when applied to damaging spells. IMHO, it is only useful when used for other effects, say, Twinned Bestow Curse or Twinned Enervation. Even those options are more stylish that actually efficient.

Twinning suffers from being a feat that is only useful in combat or similar life & death situations, while lacking the flexibility of Empower or Quicken.

I give it a '3'.

Twin Bull's Strength -- now you have to dispel TWO of them.

See, there are times when a noncombat spell, Twinned, might just be useful.

Create Water (and similar spells) might be another.

Oh, drnuncheon, I woudl say -- anytime the roll needed is NOT between 7 and 15, Twin is superior to Heighten. Between 7 and 15, HEighten can shift the odds appreciably and usefully. From 1-6, your best hope is that ONE of the two rolls comes up bad. Over 15, and you're instead trying to forestall a SINGLE good roll form foiling the effect(s).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Once you have smackish DCs, the only thing you really worry about is someone rolling a natural 20...

If you play by those rules

Heh. I'd be amused by an epic-slot Twinned Disjunction.

"Make saving throws for all your magic items."

"... done yet? Okay. Now, any that saved... do it again."

-Hyp.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

But, a doubly-empowered Fireball allows only ONE saving throw to halve ALL the damage.

The same fireball, Twinned, requires you to make TWO saving throws, in order to half the final damage total. And that's where Twin has it's benefit -- making people make their saving throw more often, to resist the same effect or damage.



Twin Bull's Strength -- now you have to dispel TWO of them.

See, there are times when a noncombat spell, Twinned, might just be useful.

Create Water (and similar spells) might be another.

As for two saves for -25% damage each or one for -50%, I prefer more luck of the dice in this case, but that is personal taste. From my POV, if I am 13th level and throwing damaging spells, I am either desperate or clearing out speedbumps. In the first case, I need luck of the dice. In the second case, it only matters if the speedbumps have Evasion. Bottom line is it is not an unambiguous advantage to force two savings throws in most cases, although I grant it could be a useful tactic for a few spellcasters.

Your examples of Twinned noncombat spell are plausible in exceptional circumstances for a Sorceror. As a Wizard, you would use Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer or Mordenkainen's Lucubration for similar ends.

 

[Angcuru]

Imagine twinning a Finger of Death or other Save-or-Die spell. Because it in effect doubles the chance for the spell to succeed, this feat can prove very useful.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Compared to empower there are plusses and minuses:

1. Save or die spells: two chances for your opponent to fail. Twinned is better than double empowered.

2. Spells with reflex save for half: about the same. If opponents have evasion, then twin spell is more reliable than double empowering. Average damage is still the same, though.

3. Non-combat spells (bull's strength, etc.); twinned is harder to dispel, but double empowered gives bigger bonuses. Double empowered is better.

4. Higher level spells. If you're a 10th level wizard, you can empower a fireball, but you can't twin it. Advantage to empower.

I think a mid-level caster would be beter off taking empower. A high level caster could get some real use out of it.

I rate it a 5.

 

[drnuncheon]

Oh, drnuncheon, I woudl say -- anytime the roll needed is NOT between 7 and 15, Twin is superior to Heighten. Between 7 and 15, HEighten can shift the odds appreciably and usefully. From 1-6, your best hope is that ONE of the two rolls comes up bad. Over 15, and you're instead trying to forestall a SINGLE good roll form foiling the effect(s).

You might think that, but when I actually looked at the probability of the target failing, it came out the opposite.

As an example, let's say that they need an 11 or better to save (50% chance).

With Heighten Spell, they need a 15 or better - that's a 30% failure rate (or a 70% failure rate).

With Twin Spell, they have a 50% chance of making one roll. But they have to make both to not be affected. The chances of that are only 25% (or a 75% failure rate).

This analysis is for 'save negates' effects, of course. If we're looking at 'save for half' then we need to get a bit more complex.

Let's assume a 10d6 fireball (avg 35 damage), and the target needs to roll an 11 or better to save.

So, the average damage for that would be:

Non-metamagiced: (.5 * 35) + (.5 * 35 / 2) = 26.25
Heighten +4: (.7 * 35) + (.3 * 35 / 2) = 29.75
Twin: ((.5 * 35) + (.5 * 35 / 2)) * 2 = 52.5
(which makes it equal to double empower or energy admixture)

and just for grins & giggles:
Maximize & Heighten+1: ((0.55 * 60) + (0.45 * 60 / 2)) = 46.5

Maybe later I'll go back and try this out with damaging spells at all possibilities, to see when the breakpoints are for Twin's effectiveness.

J

 

[smetzger]

5.46 after 35 votes

---------------------------------------------
8. Large and in Charge

7. Expert Tactician, Divine Might, Chain Spell(7.15,52,45425), Energy Substitution(7.78,101,46982)

6. Superior Expertise, Improved Sunder, Knock-Down, Shield Expert, Divine Shield, Improved Shield Bash(6.38,50,40174), Shield Charge(6.78,49,43169), Sculpt Spell(6.81,52,47645)

5. Close Quarters Fighting, Hold The Line, Pain Touch, Augment Summoning(5.42,50,44968), Energy Admixture(5.91,57,46677), Eschew Materials(5.16,83,47143)

4. Blindsight 5-foot radius, Fists of Iron, Death Blow, Lightning Fists, Mantis Leap, Monkey Grip, Power Lunge, Rapid Reload, Sharp Shooting, Zen Archery, Empower Turning(4.18,56,38151), Divine Vigor(4.61,57,37849), Subdual Substitution(4.23,57,49574)

3. Feign Weakness, Extra Stunning Attacks, Dual Strike, Circle Kick(3.09,56,11716), Eyes in the Back of Your Head, Off-Hand Parry, Pin Shield, Prone Attack, Remain Conscious, Divine Cleansing, Divine Vengeance, Heighten Turning(3.95,41,39213), Quicken Turning(3.47,36,41330), Arcane Preparation(3.43,56,44560), Extra Slot(3.37,70,47474), Split Ray(3.60,48,48880)

2. Eagle Claw Attack, Improved Overrun, Dirty Fighting, Snatch Arrows, Arcane Defense(2.34,53,44015), Cooperative Spell(2.10,51,46164), Delay Spell(2.57,69,46475), Spell Specialization(2.67,61,48503)

1. Divine Resisitance

 

[hong]

Imagine twinning a Finger of Death or other Save-or-Die spell. Because it in effect doubles the chance for the spell to succeed, this feat can prove very useful.

Well, yes, if you can cast 11th level spells.