Plot immunity for PCs

Kahuna Burger

First Post
So the discussion about XP for missing players (d)evolved into a discussion of whether it ok in a game to generally do your best not to kill characters unless the players really seem to want their PC to die. This got me more generally thinking about the idea of 'plot immunity'.

Now, usually, this term is used derisivly, such as "There's no good reason that one of the powerful NPCs we encounter hasn't kicked the kenderesq rogue's butt, except that he has plot immunity."

However, I think that a limited plot immunity can be a good thing. For instance, if you want to play a "gritty" game where it is well known that the bad guys tourture their victims, you still may not (as a DM or as a group) want to subject a perfectly good PC to such, potentially ruining the character for play. So when a PC is captured, much threat and noises are made, but there isn't time/the tourturer is too busy/we're throwing you in this cell with no food or water to soften you up first/the useless NPC is taken away first to frighten you, etc, etc.

Perhaps plot immunity is just another term for the dm not saying "what is the most realistic/more likely thing to happen now?" and instead asking herself "If this was a story about the PCs, what would happen now?"

any thoughts? How often do you grant your players plot immunity of one kind or another?

Kahuna burger
 

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Everybody seems more worried about killing PCs these days, and I agree with avoiding meaningless random deaths, but I also worry that the tension, suspense and a player's personal sense of investment in the game declines if he/she begins to realize that the DM isn't really going to let them die.

CZ
 

I have seen far too many DMs do a poor job of fudging in an attempt to give PCs plot immunity to assume that I can do a good job of it myself. Obvious DM fudging instantly dispels my suspension of disbelief, my feeling of direct involvement in the story. So I tend to avoid such things as much as possible.

It's also a matter of degree. If there are two equally plausible courses of action and one is deadly to the PC, I will almost always choose the other. But if I feel it is a stretch to find a less deadly course of action, I will not do it. Just a personal preference. The other DMs in my current group (we rotate DM duties within the campaign) seem to be believers in script immunity and they do (to my experienced eye) a poor job of the fudging necessary to make it work.

-Dave
 

DaveStebbins said:
I have seen far too many DMs do a poor job of fudging in an attempt to give PCs plot immunity to assume that I can do a good job of it myself. Obvious DM fudging instantly dispels my suspension of disbelief, my feeling of direct involvement in the story. So I tend to avoid such things as much as possible.

It's also a matter of degree. If there are two equally plausible courses of action and one is deadly to the PC, I will almost always choose the other. But if I feel it is a stretch to find a less deadly course of action, I will not do it. Just a personal preference. The other DMs in my current group (we rotate DM duties within the campaign) seem to be believers in script immunity and they do (to my experienced eye) a poor job of the fudging necessary to make it work.

-Dave

I agree.

I personally get annoyed when i realize a punch has been pulled. I go through great lenghts in game to keep my intelegent and wise PCs alive and i feel cheated when some half brained fool only survives because the dm did not want to kill the pc for the foolish act he willingly undertook.[it was not a 'heroic act' either if you are curious about that.]
 

I've never been one for plot immunity... frankly "plot" is one of the more proper times that PCs can kick the bucket. Although this is kind of subjective, I can't see how randomly dying because you didn't spot the Pit Trap or you're HP gave out in the middle of a random encounter is better than dying at the hands of a Plot NPC you either failed to deal with accordingly or opted to fight and failed to beat in some kind of exciting (or simply frustrating) battle.

When I look at interacting with NPCs and the world, I see basic improv ala "Whose Line is it Anyway?" or what have you. As you play, on the fly you make choices about how to act and what to say- the character exists in the moment and based on your actions you set his life down in imaginary stone (which can be unchiseled with the proper magics and things). If a player chooses to shake his fist in the presence of Odin and proclaim "I Bet You Can't Really Throw Lightning!" then guess what.. you've just improvised your character's way into a very, very painful end. The same can be said if he picks a fight with the wrong person in a tavern, or what have you. Every time a PC acts, especially when it involves combat, they are choosing a potential time of their death. If they want advanced creative control over their own demise, they should put down their swords, buy a home in some hamlet, and make that death happen ala the elder dwarves walking out to face the siege.

DM fudging, to a great degree, takes away choice, or at the very least part of the most important aspects of choice- the effects. If the world and the story is completely immutable, so what if the PC lives to the end of it- if he's level 20 from fattening up on random encounters, and actually has a popcorn bucket built into the back of his shield to watch the story he can't change (it isn't his story if he can't make the wrong choices as well as the right ones), he really was better off dying back at level 5 when he hissed a vulgarity under his breath about the lineage of the Elder Wyrm... in it's presense.
 

I think that the only time plot immunity should take place is when the PCs have a really crappy day of dice rolling--ie, plot immunity can cover plain old bad luck. And you can do this in the same way--if the dice are just not falling right for the players, maybe they don't fall right for the opposition as well.

Poor choices made, tactics blown and no back-up plan, etc---nope, not the time for plot immunity to be invoked. Play it out--and add in the suspense of open die rolls.

(My players dread when I go to open die rolls, mainly because I also usually get out my little yellow d20 of death--you see, ages ago a player got mad at his little die and slammed it into a coke can, then left it for dead. After the gaming session was over that day, I rescued the little die and brought it out at the next gaming session. Seems it wanted to thank me for rescuing it. Since then it has rolled remarkably well for me--this was several gaming groups ago and it still causes player angst).
 

Hmm...

Can't seem to just click on "Post Reply," I actually have to click on the "Reply" icon to someone's message...peculiar...

Anyway, I believe in a certain degree of "plot immunity." Otherwise, the game just turns into a hack'n'slash fest where, ultimately, investing time and care into your character doesn't matter because it could ultimately die during any random encounter. That, or you have to allow for fairly accessible sources for raising the dead - and personally, I want death to mean something. I don't want hack'n'slash fests where ultimately the character doesn't matter, and I don't want the miracle of resurrection being reduced to something more akin to picking up a prescription at the convenience store. As such, I believe in a certain degree of plot immunity, so that the players can actually invest some thought into their character, above and beyond just being a collection of stats, and that I don't need to turn the magic, splendor, and awe of a fantasy game into a trip to the mall or doctors.

However, by completely making the characters immune to death, you take away a certain degree of the suspension of disbelief, and, to another degree, that the characters choices actually matter.

As such, I will fudge rolls during random encounters that I don't believe should result in a characters death. If I'm just whipping something out to, say, represent the fact that the characters are traversing dangerous terrain, or they're in a dangerous part of the city, or whatever, and it's essentially a random encounter, I will avoid killing the characters off. Because, as I said, I want them to care about their characters, but also want death to matter, and resurrection seem like something special.

However, I will plan out "random" encounters which are in no way plot related, except for the fact that I fully intend on holding nothing back, and a character may very well die. I don't inform the players of this, I don't make the encounter seem any different from one where I likely won't kill them - even when I'm fudging rolls, I don't fudge expected tactics that the monster would use, I simply say to myself ahead of time, "Someone might die here, and I'm not going to hold back." So the players know that their characters are the heroes, and can expect a certain degree of plot immunity, but that death can still come, in a most ignominious and random way. Out of any three encounters, they might know I'm fudging rolls and being soft on them with two of them, while the third had a honest attempt to take their lives involved in it, but they won't know which one. So they don't take needless risks, most of the time, and treat each encounter like it very well might be their characters last. At least, hopefully.

Because if they don't, plot immunity will not protect them from being stupid. Some time back, the party in my game was exploring a temple to one of the titans of the wind, and were running across a number of air elementals and the like due to that. At one point, they came to a corridor guarded by an Aerial Servant, which none of them noticed. Now, they were only 6th level at the time, so the Aerial Servant was a good 4 above their Challenge Rating, more so as one of the four party members had died earlier that session, so it was down to three PC's, and a 5th level NPC whose equipment was little better than a starting characters. So somebody likely wasn't walking out alive, and, near as I could guess, it would quite possibly be a total party kill if they fought it. No problem, says I, I'll just make it clear that this thing isn't something to be trifled with, and, seeing as how it's guarding the corridor, they can leave the way they came, and it won't follow.

So they approach. Right off the bat, they not having noticed the Aerial Servant, it attacks, and scores a critical hit on the Constitution 10 Rogue. I didn't even need to look at his hitpoints to know that the critical hit would kill him. So, this not being an encounter I intended to kill a character during, I ignored the critical, and rolled normal damage, which dropped the Rogue to exactly 1 hitpoint (not intentional, just the way it worked out). I figure, hey, good enough, now the characters should vamoose. I made it quite clear that it only struck the Rogue once, and almost killed him.

So what did they do? They decided to stay.

To further bring home the point, the NPC, noting that the characters were going to stay and fight, engaged the creature in melee combat. With a full attack sequence now, the Aerial Servant killed the NPC in one round. Now, it's vaguely worth noting, any NPC I run without a name and background, probably maxes out at 5th level. High level characters are heroes, or villains, after all, and not commonly met. My players know this. Now, even if the NPC hadn't been a named NPC (of the variety that I didn't just drum up on the spot), or had a background, they still should have realized he was quite possibly only one level behind them. I mention this because, after the entire encounter, they figured he crumpled so easily due to being low level, due to my general policy on NPC's. A reasonable assumption - if they weren't just themselves rising above the levels most NPC's had.

Due to this error in their judgment, after the NPC died, in one round of combat, after it almost killed the Rogue, they still stayed. Only after a PC actually died did the survivor fall back (the Rogue, wisely, already having done so).

So, again, I use plot immunity, but I generally plan out a random encounter ahead of time, say, every three or so sessions, that I will absolutely hold nothing back on, and then, if the players do something blatantly idiotic, where I've given them fair warning (more than fair warning in some cases) that the course of action isn't a bright one, then they've no protection, whatsoever, from whatever might befall them.

Plot immunity does have its place; it means the characters are important, and not just one amongst a succession of characters to be paraded out when the previous one dies, and gets around the local temple being denigrated to a convenience store. However, if taken too far, it takes the bite out of the game, makes the risks seem superficial, and acts of stupidity more tolerable, neither of which are acceptible. I use plot immunity perhaps half, or two-thirds of the time, and even then, try holding back just enough that they still hover on the brink of death (I may not try to kill them, but if I can sink someone into the low negatives, I'm doing all right by my perspective). I also reasonably attempt to target a character with something they will survive, but in such a way that it seems the entirely sensible thing for the NPC to do. I had a ratman, for example, recently attempt a Coup Des Gras on a dwarven Ranger/Fighter PC, while he was sleeping, but the other characters were awake for - the dwarf had about a 75% chance or so of success on the saving throw, which is in part why I did it, but it was also in such a way to scare the crap out of my players, because they knew failure meant death, and that the ratmen they were fighting weren't screwing around. Sure, the character could have died during the fight, and if he had, I had no intention of getting him out of it, but I intentionally targeted him off the basis that he would reasonably survive. Plot immunity, to a degree, but not in such a way that the characters feel they cannot die.

Notably, it also helps to give NPC's and monsters goals other than "kill the PC's." If something's looking for a meal, for example, it might just drop somebody into the negatives, then, as opposed to turning to chomp on the next character, or finishing the initial one off, it might just take its initial target while it's bleeding to death, and try to escape with it. I don't do mental gymnastics trying to figure out goals other than killing the PC's, but I do give it some thought, at least.
 

It depends, I think, on exactly the kind of game you want to run. I've had games where I've pulled no punches, and games where death came only when the PCs were stupid to the point of absurdity. Both sorts can be fun, they're just different.

Some players find that their "personal sense of investment in the game declines if he/she begins to realize that the DM isn't really going to let them die." But others don't. Many GMs forget that the character's life and limb are not the only things in which a player may feel invested. There's many enthralling dramas out there in which death is never a risk.
 

Plot immunity? Not at my table.

Its a game, and like Monopoly, sometimes you wind up buying Park Place and Boardwalk and sometimes you wind up at one or the other and get cleaned out.

I'm not a wanna-be novelist or director when it comes to RPGs, so I don't have a burning desire to keep everyone alive to see the ending to my latest opus. (Conversely, killing PCs just to prove I can is right out the window, as well.) If a character or party doesn't survive to find out what was behind it all, someone else may some other day. I respect my Players (and my own work) too much to give them a free ride.

Otherwise, why bother going through the motions? I should just write it up as a story and give it to them to read. (Which I do regularly, too, FWIW--I just don't like muddying the issue that D&D, in whatever form, is a game to be played.)
 

My players Fear Death. They know their PC's are very much a potential target of the great scythe.

That said, the death rate ratio IMC is rather low because:

1- I have a good feel of what critter to pit against them and

2- they know When To Run.

I do fudge once in a while, but only once every other game. If death is bound to happen, it happens. My players know this and their successes feel much more grand because of this.
 

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