Point-buy ECL Alternative?

[Zigmutt]

Chun-tzu:
What if you applied the human principle, in reverse?

How about balancing ECL races by a combination of lower point buy and feat/skill penalties? Something like:

ECL 0 - 32 point buy
ECL 1 - 28 point buy, -1 feat
ECL 2 - 25 point buy, -1 feat, -1 skill point/level

There could also be some balancing "in-between" ECLs, like a straight 28-point buy would be between ECL 0 and ECL 1.

Echoing what i said earlier- that would only be fair for the low ECL races. Penalizing the higher ECL races by lowering their PT buy would weaken them very much in the beginning. It might level out in the end, but at the earlier classes, the standard race would be a lot better off than the better ones.

Ex:
human ftr 4 with 32 pt buy:
str 17 (16+1 lvl)
dex 12
con 14
int 12
wis 12
cha 10

HP- 30
feats: 5
skill pt: 21

ECL +2 race (lvl 2 ftr): with 28 pt buy

str 18= (16+2 lvl)
dex 10
con 14
int 10
wis 10
cha 10

HP: 15
feats: 3
skills: 10

losing out on dex, and int, the -4 really makes a difference (assuming that he gets extra and super abilities- not stat adjustments). But if he gets other things like DR, SR, elemental resistance, nat armor, then it would even out at the end- but right now- he has 1/2 the HP, 1/2 the SP, and 1/2 the feats. And also his BAB and saves are lower too. And if the straight core fighter chooses feats to enhance these things (iron will) then he will be much better than the guy with higher ECL.

So races with scalijng benefits should be docked on a regular basis in order to keep them in line with the core races.

EX- a ECL+2 gives you a spell like abil at every 3 levels. (1,3,6,9) like feats. At those levels, if you are a noncaster, you can forgo your skill pouints, in accepting the abilities-Or in the case of a fighter- a feat. If you are a spell caster- you have to give up a spell slot to get the spell like ability. Or you can choose not to use that abiolity and keep all your own class benefits. In addition to starting at a lower pt buy.

 

[Skaros]

If I remember correctly, this is how it worked in GURPS. To play a race with more advantages than human, you paid a price in character points.

With GURPS, however, all abilities, skills, etc were purchased with those same points.

The problem, as has been mentioned, is that in D&D there just aren't very many points to work with in point buy, so the system isn't extensible to more powerful races....or templates.

Also, what happens if someone gets reincarnated as a +ECL race, and the DM (like many) wants to apply the +ECL penalty? I guess you could re-buy all your stats to accomodate the ECL changes, but things like this could be a problem.

-Skaros

 

[Conaill]

I figured this out a while ago. According to the existing ECL calculators, +1 ECL is equivalent to something like 15 extra point-buy points (if I remember correctly). So playing 40-point characters is equivalent to getting a free level to start with.

 

[DarkSong]

Chun-tzu:
That might not be a bad idea, to inflict some other, non-point related penalty...my only concern is in making the system too cumbersome, which is really something I'd rather avoid.
Also, part of the point of going with point cost instead of ECL is to allow fine tuning, since all ECL+1 races are not created equal...for example, I don't think the Water Genasi is any better than a dwarf, and certainly not as good as an Aasimar or Tiefling, so that's a place where I would want to assign differing point values to otherwise "identical" ECL+1 races.

Zigmutt:
The whole point of using point buy points in place of ECL was to, well, use it in place of ECL. In your examples, if looks like you're penalizing more powerful races with both lower point buy totals, *and* ECL, which seems a little extreme, and might not be what you intended.
I do think it's a good point that some races scale up in power, especially the higher ECL ones...that's why I wanted to work this system out for the "common" ECL races (+1 and +2, mostly), and worry about the higher ones later...the idea of traded offs appealing though..."Sure, your half-fiend fighter can gain the unholy blight ability, if he gives up his feat at 8th level."

Skaros:
You would have to come up with something to deal with Reincarnation, but it's never been something people really want to chance in the campaigns I've been a part of, so I didn't really worry about it...and likely won't, in all honesty, until it comes up.

So does anyone have any opinions on accurate point buy costs?
Say, 32 point buy, would you take an Aasimar for 4 points rather than +1ECL? Would that change a lot if it were 25 point buy? Or 42?
Thanks again.

Edit:
Conaill:
Whoah, 15 points for +1 ECL? That's way out of line with what I was coming up with, and I don't think there's any way that a player would take that, even at a really high point buy level, like 42 or 45.
I'm not sure what this indicates...maybe that ECL is simply too gross an instrument to really adjust for racial differences, or that trying to go with point cost instead of ECL is just a bad idea.
I'd be really interested to see how that cost was figured up.

 

[Conaill]

Whoah, 15 points for +1 ECL? That's way out of line with what I was coming up with, and I don't think there's any way that a player would take that, even at a really high point buy level, like 42 or 45.

FYI, here's the two ECL calculators I know of:

thrombin007's 3E ECL Calculator v1.01 - Excel spreadsheet

Soldarin's ECL calculator

Both of these are created by fans by reverse-engineering published ECL's, so take them with a grain of salt. However, they do tend to work quite well on existing races!

The first one gives a little less than +1 ECL for a +1 to all stats, the second for a +2 to all stats. A +1 to a stat for a 25-point character is equivalent to something like 2+ points, so +1 ECL is equivalent to something like +15 to +30 point-buy points. Having seen the effects of high starting ability scores, I would tend to go with the first estimate.

I think anything below 10 points would be too cheap for a +1 ECL.

 

[Alchemist]

I think the best bet is to concentrate on the low end of the ECL's, like +1/+2. Much beyond that and we're looking at some wild instability since they're mostly eyeballed to begin with and don't seem to follow many rules that can be compensated for mathematically.

I like the idea of docking some ability points, but I think that might only work well for the 0-1 range of ECL's, like the Genasi.

I wonder if just "fudging" the ECL rules a bit would work out. Make them advance as though they are 1-2 levels higher than the other characters, like in standard ECL. But don't apply the actual "level" to the character. So if you're an Aasimar Paladin, you need 3,000 xp to hit 2nd level. You're going to spend a long time at 1st level, and you're going to spend your life a level behind your friends.

That solution isn't going to resolve the variations in racial power more sharply, but it would encourage non-standard spellcasters.


Perhaps a combination. A slight hit on points in the point buy, and perhaps a variable -x% to experience points gained. You advance slower than your friends which will compensate for your power. But you don't necessarily advance slower in lockstep with them.

Just throwing out some ideas for consideration/trashing/deification/whatever.