Point buy for feat progression?

[Quartz]

When creating a character, would you offer (as GM) or use (as player) a reduced point buy for an improved feat progression? Say every other level instead of every third level. Or increased point buy for reduced feat progression? Say every 4th level. If so, how much?

Note that this is about feats from character levels only, not from classes.

 

[Nifft]

Probably not -- Feats are IMHO less valuable than ability scores.

Compare Weapon Focus vs. +2 Strength, for example. Or Spell Focus vs. +2 Intelligence.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Quartz]

Probably not -- Feats are IMHO less valuable than ability scores.

But what about feat chains? Advanced eligibility for prestige classes? Also, feats can be more fun than base stats.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Comparing Apples to Oranges?

Probably not -- Feats are IMHO less valuable than ability scores.

Compare Weapon Focus vs. +2 Strength, for example. Or Spell Focus vs. +2 Intelligence.

Aren't you comparing apples to oranges? Weapon Focus is only 1 feat compared to a +2 strength increase that would take 8 levels to get. Same with Spell Focus and intelligence.

I'm replacing all the ability increases in my campaign with bonus feats, anyway. I'm still allowing the option to increase ability scores as feats, though. Here's a sample.

ABILITY FOCUS (SELECTED ABILITY) [GENERAL]
Choose one ability score (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma). This ability score increases.
Prerequisite: Character level 4th
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to the selected ability score.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new ability score.​

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

When creating a character, would you offer (as GM) or use (as player) a reduced point buy for an improved feat progression? Say every other level instead of every third level. Or increased point buy for reduced feat progression? Say every 4th level. If so, how much?

Note that this is about feats from character levels only, not from classes.

No. I wouldn't allow or offer it.

It's too complicated, for me, as far as thinking about game balance. As stated in the previous post, though, I'd allow a character to take a feat in lieu of an ability increase at the levels where an ability increase would normally be gained.

Of course, to me, a feat is pretty close to being equal with a +1 bonus to an ability score. Sometimes a feat is better. Sometimes it's not. But, it's not that far off.

What I wouldn't do is create a way where a character could devote every feat to increasing only one or two ability scores. I've tried it and I will never allow it again. I had a player elect to increase his warrior type (a Champion of Life from Arcana Unearthed)character's strength score every time a feat was available. It didn't hurt game balance too much (but, it did affect it), but it was really boring.

So, I recommend allowing a character that wants a better feat progression to substitute a level-based ability increase for a feat, but not the other way around (at least not without some other guidlines that prevent an ability score from rising faster than 1 point per 4 character levels).

 

[Nifft]

But what about feat chains? Advanced eligibility for prestige classes? Also, feats can be more fun than base stats.

Dunno. Show me some side-by-side builds, both sides optimized, and compare them.

Aren't you comparing apples to oranges? Weapon Focus is only 1 feat compared to a +2 strength increase that would take 8 levels to get. Same with Spell Focus and intelligence.

Er, the original poster is talking about giving higher stats in trade for fewer feats, at character creation. So where's this "8 levels" stuff coming from?

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Er, the original poster is talking about giving higher stats in trade for fewer feats, at character creation. So where's this "8 levels" stuff coming from?

Ahh...! I see. (At least I think I do. Or, maybe not.)
:\

The eight levels is coming from comparing a feat to what it normally takes to gain a +2 bonus to a score. (However irrelevant that might be in terms of lower point buys for more rapid feat progressions or higher point-buys for slower feat progressions.)

I was simply not seeing why you would compare one feat to the equivalent of two ability increases. It looks like apples to oranges to me, even in a point-buy situation.

My apologies for the added confusion.

I still wouldn't offer or allow adjusting the point-buy to vary the feat progression. It's easier (for me) to turn the level-based ability increases into bonus feats and then allow ability increases to be purchased as a feat (according to the sample given above). This allows each character to customize their feat progression by adjusting their ability increases and vice-versa.

As far as balancing the Original Poster's idea, I'd go about it by determining how many points of a point-buy are worth a level adjustment. Then, I'd have to determine how many feats a level is worth. (I can guage the first pretty accurately, but the second I haven't really thought about.)

So, if we know how many feats a level is worth, we might be able to work out something that might be workable, even if I wouldn't use it or recommend it.

I just don't understand how your comparing a single feat to a +2 increase to an ability score without comparing it in terms of feats? To me, a +1 bonus to an ability score is about equal to one feat.

Also, I haven't seen a breakdown of how many point-buy points are worth a feat. Especially, since this could change as higher ability scores cost more point-buy points than lower scores do. So, I need to know the variable to get from talking in terms of feats to talking in terms of how many feats are worth a level.

Am I clear as mud?

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Errr...

I dunno if it's actually helpful or not, but Upper Krust did that whole CR thing which became the basis for the Creature Creation chapter of Grim Tales.

As they figure it:
Feats

CR +0.2/bonus feat* not tied to Level/HD progression
*including epic feats (provided you meet the prerequisites)

For Ability scores, this is what's said:

How Ability Scores are determined:
• Total all rated ability scores.
• Subtract 63 from the total (representing 10.5 per ability score)
• Divide remainder by 10 to get the CR modifier.
eg. Gorgon (Str 21, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 9) = CR +1.2
21 + 10 + 21 + 2 + 12 + 9 = 75
75 - 63 (six rated ability scores) = 12
12 ÷ 10 = CR +1.2

Player Characters initial Ability Scores
If determined randomly (with dice rolls) then work out as above.
Standard Point Buy: (25 points) = CR +1
Non-standard Point Buy: CR +0.1/point above 15
eg. 32 point buy = CR +1.7

When applying ability score modifiers within Size, Templates and
Traits.
CR +0.1/every additional point
CR -0.1/every subtracted point

Equipment:

CR +0.2/level of PC Equipment
CR +0.125/level of NPC Equipment

Whether you agree with the premise or not, it's a starting point.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Definitely a starting point, though I'm not 100% on board with the idea that a CR increase is equal to a level.

If we assume that it is (which is also done in Rycanada's E6, too), then 5 feats to the level might be a good starting point to work it out.

For what I worked out concerning point-buys and level adjustments (which is admittedly a different method than you've presented (as worked out by Upper Krust), here's probably the point-buys that I'd offer for alternate feat progressions (if I were to offer it, which I wouldn't).

Point
Range
For Point
Buy
------
00-11 = bonus feat every level

12-18 = bonus feat every two levels.

19-32 = standard feat progression per Player's Handbook. bonus feat every three levels.

33-48 = bonus feat every fourth level

49-74 = bonus feat every fifth level​

But, I don't recommend doing this. For me, I think it would get too confusing to keep track of who was using which scale.

 

[Malhost Zormaeril]

I realise this might be threadcrapping, but damn. 74-point buy; you can get a 18/18/18/16/15/15 array with that... I'd easily play a character with feat-progression every 5th level for those kinds of scores...

Of course, if I still want feats, I can still make do with playing a Fighter. So I guess there's a bit of an imbalance centered on the Fighter class... Other people intrude on the Fighter's schtick, or the Fighter takes huge amounts of Point buy and still have a good amount of feats by 20th level...