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Point-buy or rolling? Your preference and why?

Snoweel said:
... Dice my ass. Why don't you just admit that 32 points isn't enough for you to buy your phallic dream character and clear your conscience.

Pfeh. Me and Drake Darklance have had enough of this "debate".

well i for one will lose no sleep at losing your insightful opinion. next time, feel free to keep your snide remarks to yourself, when you've had "enough" of something.

for the record, i have no problem admitting that even the 40 point buy that we use in our game isn't enough for me. i like the idea of playing a "Master Race Prototype" as you so eloquently put it. make no mistake about it, fantasy RPGing is all about escapism.

i could insert something equally, and perhaps even more, rude and offensive about your style of gaming, but i think you've filled that quota for the day. not that you'd be around to see this anyway.

... aww to hell with it, what a :):):):):):):) :):):)-:):):):):)!
*sigh* that feels better.

~NegZ
 

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I prefer the rolling. I think in is more fun and often encourages, the play to better level of creativity. I find point buy. leaves the characters a bit flat, both I and my players seem moe in touch and closer to our charters we've started by rolling then with point by.
ken


Henry said:
Continued from the New Character closeup thread here.

Do you prefer point-buy or rolling 4d6 for your stats in your games? Why is it?
 

For one-shots, "Idiot Camping Teenagers In the Woods" or "Kill the Kobold Menace" I'll use point-buy, or even pre-gen characters. No biggee.
For the ongoing campaign of Shtar, it is: 4 die 6, reroll ones, take best 3, witnessed by myself. Hand me the PC sheet for doublechecking (It is now put into Campaign Suite for verifying) and any modifications that might need to be made.

The time it takes to roll it up is somewhat of a penalty, since you roll it during the game you got killed in. Yup, death can be permanent in Shtar (Lay to Rest, for those of you with Arcane Strife, and Sundered Soul, from the upcoming Divine Strife) even with the non-penalty True Cheat Death Spell.

We like the randomness, and it prevents the player from playing "Dufus the Dwarf Warrior the XXIV" when "Dufus XXIII" gets put down by the Troll Bloodthorne Brigade deserter.

The more experienced players get to use the "Creation Matrix" we developed that really resembles the Shadowrun matrix, if they so choose, but for the most part, they just grab the dice and start rolling.

Why? Not everyone is created equally. In my experience, playing with point buy, in point games, and in D&D for waaay to long, it requires more creativity to figure up a history, less "generic" classes, less of this "Min/Maxing" crap, and in general, when we went to point buy, my players HATED it. Absolutely could not stand it. They asked me when I was going to just allow them to automatically win a fight, or just crunch the numbers, since random dice would be unfair also.
They also stated that it just brought D&D closer to NWN, and asked me when I'd be "patching" the game again.

So, bypassing all the mathmatics, the logical arguements, and the rest of the mental masturbation, it sucked the fun out of the game for my players, who do NOT look at character creation as the funnest part of the game, but instead cheering on a player whose Wizard is stabbing someone in the face and trying to break the guys neck at the same time, in an alley, while the fighter is slamming an assassin against the wall till he feels him go soft.

BUT, just because point-buy doesn't work in my group, doesn't mean I'm going to slam you.

It's supposed to be fun for the group.
 

varies. I generally roll, but sometimes I set up a point buy. I almost never use the DMG point buy. With the exception of str, the stats benefits scale in a fairly linear manor. Str has concentrated benefits in its to hit and to dmg and possible x1.5 dmg if two handed style so it doesn't scale the same. Still overall I give 25 points start at 8 1 for one benefit maximum of a 18 before racial mods.

Overall though I just have people roll and if someone is disatisfied with their character, and I don't think they are being whinny I let them reroll.
 

Well, I started with the WotC point buy system and it seemed to work well. It may be that I've become accustomed to the 28-30 point range but it also seems to me to recognize that 14 is pretty much the minimum a character can have in their prime attribute and still be competent, that 16 is better but not that much better, and that 18 is dramatically better. So the point costs seem to match my experience as well. I also like the "start at 8" attitude of the WotC point buy. Call me silly, but I don't ever want to see someone role playing a charisma 3 character properly. Nor do I think a wisdom 3 character in a group could possibly be a good thing.

That said, I don't think it's perfect. And in the future, I intend to try Hackenslash's system which allows for 15s, 16s, and 17s at a slightly lower cost but keeps the premium on 18s.

Henry said:
I do have one question: Why do proponents of point-buy use the exact point buy that is given in the core rules? Has it been mathematically proven that it is a good solid system, or does everyone take WotC's word for it?

What makes it inherently better than, say 14-15 = 3 points, and 16 or higher = 5 points? Or 2 point cost to every score above 13?

The main reason I like point buy is that it doesn't require DM's to actually be present at the rolling, as most DM's feel they must be for dice rolls; all it takes is counting up to verify.

But is the point buy in the DMG the best way to go?
 

Snoweel said:


So where are the PCs created with unlucky rolls? Do the other PCs kill them on sight out of sheer embarassment?

It seems the major unspoken justification for "letting the dice decide" is it's a convenient handwave for having a party full of Master Race Prototypes.

Dice my ass. Why don't you just admit that 32 points isn't enough for you to buy your phallic dream character and clear your conscience.

Pfeh. Me and Drake Darklance have had enough of this "debate".

Wow.

"When personal issues attack!" - film at 11


Patrick Y.
 

At various times, my group has used rolling methods and point systems. Some of our solutions are presented below.

Points:

Most recently, we've been favoring the point system. However, it does tend to produce characters with very similar stats, and the "penalty" for high stats only reinforces this.

Our most recent campaign we used a modified "28+2" system. Basically, use the points to buy stats as normal. Then you get 2 more ability points to add to the stats directly. (+1 to two different, or +2 to one) The +2 essentially reduces the cost of getting a single high score, while not giving a "discount" on getting two high scores.


Rolling:
We've found that the standard 4d6 drop the lowest produces fairly average characters. It is rare to have scores outside the 10-15 range.

To alleviate this problem, I devised a system I call "Catch-22". (actually 2 sets of 11, but "2 x Catch-11" doesn't flow as well.)

The first step is to roll 11 dice. Group the highest 3 rolls as the 1st stat. The next 3 highest as the 2nd stat. The next 3 for the 3rd stat. The lowest two are ignored.

So if you rolled: 6,5,4,3,2,1,6,5,4,3,2

You'd end up with 17 (6,6,5), 14 (5,5,4), and 10 (4,3,3)

Roll the dice again and group them the same.

This method usually produces 2 scores in the 15-18 range, 2 in the 11-14 range and 2 in the 7-10 range.

The average should be around 13 per score, but the variance is much higher than 4d6 drop the low, so getting a set like 18, 18, 13, 10, 7, 4 is much more likely. (between sets of scores, I like similar sets of averages. within a set of scores, I like lots of variance)

A question often asked with this system is why 11 dice are rolled. The number was arrived at by trial and error, so basically: 10 was too few, and 12 was too many.

If tougher characters are desired, you can use 12-14 dice per set instead of 11. For "challenging" (or maybe "challenged" is a better term) try 10 or even 9 dice.


Relative Strength
Whatever rolling method chosen, one of the biggest problems is the differential between toughest and weakest characters. It is certainly no fun to play a fighter that is weaker and has fewer hit points than the party wizard.

To remedy this, we implemented a "stat draft" in one campaign.

To begin, the players (and dm) have to agree on the basic power level you plan on using, otherwise it will be hard to agree on whether a set is "acceptable".

First, we rolled 2 sets of stats for each character (12 sets total) using the Catch-22 method above. We compared all the sets and found 6 sets we all agreed were pretty good. (making sure they were all pretty equal) If needed at this point, roll more sets until you have enough sets that everyone is happy with. Then randomy distribute the sets.

The random distribution pretty much ensures that all the sets will be roughly equal. (it is unlikely that a group of players would agree to have a set in the pool that is clearly better than the rest because they aren't ensured of getting it. For similar reasons, they wouldn't want a clearly inferior set in the pool for fear they might get stuck with it) Again, play with whatever power level your group is comfortable with, and as long as all the characters are the same relative strenght, they should all be able to contribute to the the group equally. (nothing worse than feeling like your character is excess baggage)

This achieves multiple goals:
1) Everyone gets to roll lots of dice.
2) The sets of scores, while not identical, will be roughly equal
3) The random distribution means that the best roller won't always have the toughest character.


Overall Power Level
As for the power level we play at, we realized that the tougher the characters were at first level, the harder it actually was for them to survive. If the characters have an easy time dispatching enemies, the tendency will be for the DM to increase the EL's of future encounters. The problem with this is that these tougher creatures will be more likely to kill PC's off quicker (some times with one hit)

This is due to the fact that tougher characters at 1st level are mutants. They might be able to deal out damage like a "normal" 2nd or 3rd level character, but they still have 1st level hit points. We ran into a similar problem in 2nd edition when the Skills and Powers book came out. I made "Super Elf" and was able to kill an Ogre in a single round, provided I got to act first and hit with my attacks. Otherwise, the Ogre would likely kill me with a single shot. For this reason we usually have 30-32 point characters (28+2 fits in this range)


Umbrage
 

as far as everyone's comments on dice rolling, congratulations on having your opinion.

about my 14 14 14 12 16 12 cleric. he is fifth level and has pumped up wisdom from 15 to 16. also, he has the celerity domain (granted power +2 to dex (this is availible in kalamar)). so his original stats were 14 12 14 12 15 12.

anyway, having higher or lower stats doesn't matter so much except in comparison to the difficulty level of stuff that the DM throws at the party.

and on the 4d6 drop lowest 7 times drop lowest. that isn't exactly how it goes. after 4d6 6 times the DM offers to reroll the lowest score. if the player accepts he must take whatever the new roll is, even if it is lower (players have been stuck trading 10s for 6, 7, and 8s because of this)
 

Arcane Runes Press[/i] [b] Wow. "When personal issues attack!" - film at 11 [/b][/quote] Don't tell me you don't have anything personal against the conflict between actual motives and ostensible motives. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Negative Zero said:
well i for one will lose no sleep at losing your insightful opinion. next time, feel free to keep your snide remarks to yourself, when you've had "enough" of something.

Actually, I think I was a tad too blunt for my remarks to qualify as "snide".

for the record, i have no problem admitting that even the 40 point buy that we use in our game isn't enough for me.

Then I have no problem with you.

My problem was with people who deride point-buy over the prescribed 4d6-drop-the-lowest method as being too "weak".

I mean, if they were honest, the 4d6-drop-the-lowest method is far weaker than the 4d6-drop-the-lowest-and-reroll-over-and-over-and-over-until-your-character-can-kick-sand-in-everyone's-face-at-the-beach method that they do use.

And then claim that their rolling method is somehow effectively "random".

i like the idea of playing a "Master Race Prototype" as you so eloquently put it. make no mistake about it, fantasy RPGing is all about escapism.

Don't forget "power fantasy". And I admit that the 25-point buy method I use creates characters far more capable than I myself am in real life.

i could insert something equally, and perhaps even more, rude and offensive about your style of gaming

No you couldn't.

I mean, given your style, what could you possibly say?

but i think you've filled that quota for the day. not that you'd be around to see this anyway.

:rolleyes:
 

I use nothing but the Point Buy Method, with budgets being either 25 or 28 points, because I want everyone to enter the game on a level playing field because that's the fairest way to go. It has the secondary merit of allowing me to let players make their PCs at home without worry of cheating; a quick scan is all that I need to ensure that the points add up.
 

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