Point buy

[Deset Gled]

There is no reason NOT to have races that give odd-numbered bonuses (+1, +3) or stat buff spells that give odd-numbered bonuses -- except to insure that nobody ever has an odd stat if they can help it.

It's really pretty lame. If you had races that granted +1 to str, -1 to con or whatever, you would occasionally have a mechanical "reason" to point-buy an odd stat. You don't even have that now, unless you have spare point-buy points left over and have to put them somewhere.

(or need a 13 in a stat for a feat).

Actually, there is a very good reason to not allow races to have odd numbered modifiers. If you do, you make it so that players using rolling methods can nullify the penalties of the race and still reap the benefits. Consider a hypothetical race with +1 Str, -1 Int and -1 Cha. If a player rolls three 13s, they can put these in Str, Int, and Cha. They then recieve a Str modifier that is +1 higher without any penalty to the other two stats. Using odd modifiers to races does nothing but encourage min/maxing.

A similar problem exists with magic items with odd bonuses; their value varies greatly according to the character using them. A magic item that grants a +3 to a stat will have to cost more than a +2 item, but will have the same practical value to half of the characters using it. Since wealth is (idealy) standardized across different characters at different levels, this creates a balance problem.

In all honesty, I think the real problem you're addressing are issues you have with the point buy system. If you give players the option to voluntarily pick their stats, there are always going to be numerical nuances that allow them to maximize efficiency. OTOH, if you use the rolling method of stat creating, these problems dissapear instantly.

 

[two]

Actually, there is a very good reason to not allow races to have odd numbered modifiers. If you do, you make it so that players using rolling methods can nullify the penalties of the race and still reap the benefits. Consider a hypothetical race with +1 Str, -1 Int and -1 Cha. If a player rolls three 13s, they can put these in Str, Int, and Cha. They then recieve a Str modifier that is +1 higher without any penalty to the other two stats. Using odd modifiers to races does nothing but encourage min/maxing.

A similar problem exists with magic items with odd bonuses; their value varies greatly according to the character using them. A magic item that grants a +3 to a stat will have to cost more than a +2 item, but will have the same practical value to half of the characters using it. Since wealth is (idealy) standardized across different characters at different levels, this creates a balance problem.

In all honesty, I think the real problem you're addressing are issues you have with the point buy system. If you give players the option to voluntarily pick their stats, there are always going to be numerical nuances that allow them to maximize efficiency. OTOH, if you use the rolling method of stat creating, these problems dissapear instantly.

I have no idea what you are talking about, honestly. I don't undersatnd this line of logic at all. I'm baffled.

" Consider a hypothetical race with +1 Str, -1 Int and -1 Cha. If a player rolls three 13s, they can put these in Str, Int, and Cha. They then recieve a Str modifier that is +1 higher without any penalty to the other two stats. Using odd modifiers to races does nothing but encourage min/maxing. "

Consider the same race when applied to three 12's. In this case, there is a significant difference. Or how about 13 str, 12 int, 12 charisma. Even greater change.

What is the big deal? When you have a race with +1 to strength, the race is just a little less strong than (say) a half-orc. Sometimes it increases the bonus of a stat by 1 (13 to 14) and sometimes it doesn't. What is the big deal? Why this obsession with a necessary change in the BONUS?

"If you do, you make it so that players using rolling methods can nullify the penalties of the race and still reap the benefits."

If you end up with 3 13's and apply +1/-1/-1 to them, then you have "hidden" the penalties and reap the benefit. True. So what? The race is still bit stronger and dumber and less wise than a human. The stats reflects that. 13 int > 12 int after all. The bonus is the same. Big deal.

Are you telling me that players will mechanically hide the penalties if possible? Kinda like playing a wizard Dwarf (gee, you "hid" the -2 to charisma penalty)? Yeah, they will part of the time. So what? Sometimes they can, sometimes they can't.

As it is, everyone and his uncle has even stats, "hiding" the useless odd stats by not buying them (in point buy) or dumping odds into the dump stats.

Talk about boring mechanical min/maxxing.

"A similar problem exists with magic items with odd bonuses; their value varies greatly according to the character using them. A magic item that grants a +3 to a stat will have to cost more than a +2 item, but will have the same practical value to half of the characters using it. Since wealth is (idealy) standardized across different characters at different levels, this creates a balance problem."

This is absurd. You mean that the value of a "Belt of Dwarvenkind" varies according greatly to the charcter using them? It's better for an elf than a dwarf? Eeek! You mean +5 Full Plate is more useful to a fighter than a wizard? Eeek! Run!

There is no balance problem with a +3 item of strength. The character with a strength = 13 benifits more than the character with the strength=12. The character with strenth=13 benefits more because -- get this -- he or she is STRONGER. 13>12. What is the problem here?

The wizard moving from int 22 to 24 into benefits more than the wizard moving from int 12 to 14. More powerful bonus spells, etc. And that's fine. Increases to higher stats give better results. 13 + 3 = 16. Cool. 12 + 3 = 15. Great. Too bad you were not as strong as the 13 strength guy.

Obviously -- and do mean obviously -- if stat bonus enhancements could be bought "on the odd", for example gloves of dex +3, the value of an odd stat increases, and becomes useful again. This would be a good thing, not the end of the world as you seemingly think.

I think it would be great if you could buy a Strength=15 and imagine that in a few levels you might be able to afford a +3 to stength item. That's cool. That gives odd values a strong reason to exist.

Or, as is done currently, the Strength is put at 16 immediately or dumped down to 14. (99% of the time, barring obscure circumstance)

A modified system makes 14, 15, and 16 all good options.

The status quo doesn't.

It's silly.

Ditto "no odd racial increases to stats".

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually it is role playing. It is not planning out the character for the first ten levels before the first adventure. It is having the character choices actually reflect what happens in the game and not based on what the player decided when he created the character.

If you put in odd stats, you ARE planning out your character ahead of time at first level.

You are planning to decide whether to boost Str or boost Con at fourth level.

That's STILL an ahead of time plan, it is just a different plan.

And, you can do the same thing by taking even stats. I can still decide at fourth level whether to boost Str or Con. I can STILL "have the character choices actually reflect what happens in the game and not based on what the player decided when he created the character.". Your putting in odd stats method is not superior in this regard.

The limitation that I put in at first level was that by choosing 16 Str 16 Con, I cannot boost Con to 18 at level four like you can.

The limitation that you put in at first level was that by choosing 15 Str 17 Con, you cannot boost Str to 17 at level four and hence to 18 at level eight like I can.

Both of us have limited the character in some way with our first level ability score choices and the characters have to live with those choices from then on. Your way does not give more options nor does it allow Roleplaying options that are not allowed using my method. Roleplaying-wise, the two systems are basically equivalent.

What your way does do, however, is limit the abilities of the character at lower levels which in turn decreases his survivability. This is more of a game mechanic issue than a roleplaying one.

The game system IS designed to heavily encourage characters with even stats, regardless of the fact that one could come up with unusual character concepts in order to attempt to avoid that fact. Pretending otherwise is merely that, pretending.

 

[Lasher Dragon]

Forgive me if I'm way off base here...

But I find it odd that I got my arse jumped for providing a link to Beholder stats I found with a basic google search because they weren't in the SRD - yet here's a whole thread on stuff not in the SRD...

 

[KarinsDad]

Forgive me if I'm way off base here...

But I find it odd that I got my arse jumped for providing a link to Beholder stats I found with a basic google search because they weren't in the SRD - yet here's a whole thread on stuff not in the SRD...

I find it odd that this happened to you too.

The SRD is not the game, it is merely a subset.

The game is the PHB, DMG, MM, plus any other source material someone wishes to play with and the DND Rules Forum should allow discussion on all official DND rules, not just SRD ones. Otherwise, it should be called the SRD Rules Forum. IMO.

 

[sullivan]

Forgive me if I'm way off base here...

But I find it odd that I got my arse jumped for providing a link to Beholder stats I found with a basic google search because they weren't in the SRD - yet here's a whole thread on stuff not in the SRD...

No, no, no. The REAL irony is that the stat block you linked to was copy-paste from the 3.0 SRD, not the 3.5 MM. Well one of the blocks was anyway, the other was from an article publicly posted by WotC on their website (but since removed).

 

[Lasher Dragon]

No, no, no. The REAL irony is that the stat block you linked to was copy-paste from the 3.0 SRD, not the 3.5 MM. Well one of the blocks was anyway, the other was from an article publicly posted by WotC on their website (but since removed).

LOL I never claimed they were accurate Beholder stats....

 

[Henry]

Are you telling me that players will mechanically hide the penalties if possible? Kinda like playing a wizard Dwarf (gee, you "hid" the -2 to charisma penalty)? Yeah, they will part of the time. So what? Sometimes they can, sometimes they can't.

In most groups, there will be at least one player who does this, yes. That's one of the design goals of 3E, to balance it as well as possible for both the casual player and the power gamer. If your group doesn't play that way, that's cool - but some do, and the designers wanted as little balance work for the DM as possible, and this one example was not a bad way to achieve it.

In your example, the dwarf wizard did not hide the CHA penalty because it has taken a full point off of any ability check, social interaction, or class skill he has involving charisma. In your examples of using 3 12's instead of 3 13's, that's a perfect scenario of when a power player would NOT put his or her odd scores into those positions, and statistically speaking with random rolls, it's unlikely that a player will get all even or all odd numbers - they'll get a mix of each, and a whole increment of bonus or penalty ensures that each player will not be unduly advantaged or disadvantaged at character creation.

As it is, everyone and his uncle has even stats, "hiding" the useless odd stats by not buying them (in point buy) or dumping odds into the dump stats.

Talk about boring mechanical min/maxxing.

Quite true, it is boring, but these same players you're noting with all even stats from point buy are ALSO the same players who would use that point buy to buy odd stats to bump up with +1 ability score increases, and they're also the same players who with the odd stats they do have bump them up first with the ability increases at 4th, 8th, and 12th level.

There is no balance problem with a +3 item of strength. The character with a strength = 13 benifits more than the character with the strength=12. The character with strenth=13 benefits more because -- get this -- he or she is STRONGER. 13>12. What is the problem here?

Because in an example between a STR 12 and STR 13 character, the +2 bonus item is giving the same bonus to each character - +1 to hit and damage. The +1 item is giving a +1 to one character, and +0 to another. I don't think it's HORRIBLY wrong, but I do understand why the designers would consider even ability bonuses fair to all players.

A modified system makes 14, 15, and 16 all good options.

The status quo doesn't.

It's silly.

To me, they still are, because odd stats are what's required for half of the feats out there. People are already incorporating that into their ability choices, however, you just don't see it that much. In our games I do see people planning or raising odd stats in ability scores all the time, because they plan for certain feats. People start with odd stats in strategic locations for improvement later in randomly rolled games, or in point-buys they plan to have a score one greater than what's needed - again, emphasizing even stats in point-buy, but it means they have to have an ability that's TWO higher than what they intended.

I'm not saying your point's not valid, just trying to explain another side to it.

 

[KarinsDad]

Because in an example between a STR 12 and STR 13 character, the +2 bonus item is giving the same bonus to each character - +1 to hit and damage. The +1 item is giving a +1 to one character, and +0 to another. I don't think it's HORRIBLY wrong, but I do understand why the designers would consider even ability bonuses fair to all players.

I too understand the rationale, but it is not consistent.

There are many ability draining spells, poisons, and creature abilities which can take away odd number of points. In that case, it is not fair to all players.

12 - 1 = 11 and a loss, 13 - 12 = 12 and no loss.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I don't know about that. There may not be very strong reasons, but there are several reasons to have odd ability scores:

1. To increase at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, etc.

Assuming that a character places all his stat bumps into one stat, a character with an odd score is better off than an even scored character at levels: 4-7, 12-15, and 20. Since that's only nine levels, it may seem like he's worse off in general, however, by level 18 or so, inherent bonusses from wishes, tomes, etc. are a very real possibility and they expand the "better off" to 11 levels--12 if you count the ability to spend less on a tome because you get the same benefit from a +4 tome as from a +5 tome at 20th level.

Furthermore, any change in the starting or ending level changes the number of levels where an odd stat gains an advantage. Since, IME, the most common way to change the starting level is to start at level 2, 3, or 4, that shifts the balance of advantage to the advantage of odd stats. I would estimate that level 20, 19, 18, 17, and 16, etc are the most likely to be cut off (the sooner a campaign ends, in general, the lower the highest level reached) and since most of the top 25% of D&D levels is even stat advantage, that also shifts the balance to favor the odd starting stat.

There is also a good argument that the levels at which the odd numbers gain the advantage are more significant:

At level 5, a spellcaster with a 15 starting casting stat gains a bonus 3rd level spell. Not so for the 14 starting casting stat. With a +2 item, he will also gain a bonus 4th level spell at 7th level. The 14 starting stat character has to wait unit 8th level. This is true at higher levels too. A 14 starting stat character won't get a bonus 7th level spell until 16th level--even with a +6 stat item. A 15 starting stat character gains that bonus a 13th level--right when he gains 7th level spells. The even stat character catches up at 16th level, but, by that time, 7th level spells are no longer his premiere spells so the 15 stat character gains the bonus spell advantages when they are most significant and, by the time the 14 starting stat character catches up, those advantages are no longer as significant.

2. To qualify for feats
13 dex for the dodge tree and 13 int for combat expertise are obvious. However, 15 dex rather than 14 makes it much easier to qualify for manyshot/improved rapid shot by 8th level. Similarly, 13 strength for power attack is easy to overlook since most primary fighters have well higher than that strength. However, for secondary fighters and other characters, that's a consideration.

3. Carrying Capacity
Strength is the one attribute where it always makes a difference exactly what your score is. A character with a 12 strength will have to struggle to carry more than a chain shirt, rapier, buckler, longbow, dagger, and 10 arrows. With a 13 strength, it's easier to kit out a combat rogue. Similarly, a mage with a 9 strength has a slightly easier time than a mage with an 8 strength.

All told, none of those are individually compelling reasons, but taken together, I think they provide sufficient reason to start with odd stats--or at least to prefer a 15 to a 14. My first characters in 3.0 had all even stats, but as I've gamed more, I've started a lot more characters with odd stats. Then again, I've mostly played under limited point buys (22, 25, 28, 30, 32). Since my primary reason to stick with the odd stat in preference to the higher even stat is not wanting to sacrifice other stats to do so, it stands to reason that I'd be more likely to select even starting stats in higher point buy games.

In 3.5, there is no good reason (tmk) to have an odd ability score.