Point of Origin?? (for spells)

[Skagul]

Hi!
Something has been bugging me for a while now.

What is the Point of Origin for spells???

For some spells it's easy:
a) CLW [touch] - caster is the point of origin
b) magic missile [targeted] - caster is the point of origin
c) lightning bolt [line] - caster is the point of origin

No problem there.

But what about the following:
a) CLW,mass [area] - caster or the point of activation??
b) fireball [area] - the caster or the point of detonation??
c) wall of fire/blade barrier [line? area?] - ?????
d) conviction, mass [area] - caster or the point of activation??

The problem occurs when those spells, or their caster meet Antimagic (which supresses spell effects)
OK, first two spells are instantaneous, they are effectively canceled.

What about Conviction, Mass? Let's say that the caster & 2 recipients are within antimagic - spell is suppreses;they leave antimagic - spell kicks in??
What if only 1 recipient leaves antimagic & the caster [point of orgin?] is still inside antimagic?
Or what if the caster, in the moment of casting, was in antimagic & the recipients were outside of antimagic?
Or what if the caster, in the moment of casting, was outside of antimagic & the point of activation was inside of antimagic?

What about Wall of Fire/Blade Barrier?
Caster cast WoF while inside antimagic, but the area of the spell is outside:
a) spell works normaly
b) spell is suppressed until the caster moves outside the antimagic
c) spell is canceled

And so on, and so on....

I'd appreciate your input, suggestions, & solutions to this conundrum

Tnx

 

[FEADIN]

We always played that only the part or the target in the antimagic are suppressed/unaffected once the antimagic moves or wears off the spell or effect is back.
You can't cast a spell in an antimagic zone nor affect someone in antimagic at the moment you cast the spell unless it's an ongoing spell in the area and the antimagic ends or moves leaving the target in that area.

 

[steeldragons]

a) CLW,mass [area] - caster or the point of activation??

I'm not sure of the spell description, but I would go with the caster as the origin with the healing magic/energy radiating out from him/her.

b) fireball [area] - the caster or the point of detonation??

Well, the caster is the point of origin. The fireball goes from the caster to the desired location for detonation.

c) wall of fire/blade barrier [line? area?] - ?????

Hm. I hadn't thought of this, but I would still be prone to say the caster is the origin. That's where the magic energy is being focused and manipulated through the spellcasting and then sent to take effect wherever in the mage's area of effect. So I'm gonna say caster on this one too.

d) conviction, mass [area] - caster or the point of activation??

See Mass CLW, above.

The problem occurs when those spells, or their caster meet Antimagic (which supresses spell effects)
OK, first two spells are instantaneous, they are effectively canceled.

I don't know that I see the "problem"...anti-magic=no magic. So...no magic. There is no magic possible within an antimagic field.

What about Conviction, Mass? Let's say that the caster & 2 recipients are within antimagic - spell is suppressed;they leave antimagic - spell kicks in??

Uh, no. "Caster" waves his hands and mumbles something within an antimagic field...nothing happens. No energy is focused or manipulated or "put on hold"...ANTI-magic...nothing happens. Spell is not able to be cast.

What if only 1 recipient leaves antimagic & the caster [point of orgin?] is still inside antimagic?

Nothing happens because...nothing has happened magic-wise. See above.

Or what if the caster, in the moment of casting, was in antimagic & the recipients were outside of antimagic?

I am confused why you think someone can cast within an antimagic field. Now, if they are casting and someone smacks antimagic on them...while casting, then yeah, sionara spell. Regardless of who the recipients are supposed to be, the energy of the magic, being directed by the mage, is negated. Doesn't matter where the recipients are since no spell actually goes off.

But again, if the caster is IN the antimagic field...then no actual casting takes place.

Or what if the caster, in the moment of casting, was outside of antimagic & the point of activation was inside of antimagic?

Say it with me...Anti-magic...Nothing happens. The magic is negated/dissipated/dispelled at the perimeter of the antimagic field.

What about Wall of Fire/Blade Barrier?
Caster cast WoF while inside antimagic,

EHHNNT!<BUZZER goes off> No, caster didn't.

...but the area of the spell is outside:
a) spell works normally
b) spell is suppressed until the caster moves outside the antimagic
c) spell is canceled

D) None of the above. Spell is not cast. Period. Caster doesn't LOSE the spell because the spell was not cast. Magical energies are not able to be accessed within an antimagic field.

I'd appreciate your input, suggestions, & solutions to this conundrum
Tnx

There you go. You're quite welcome.

Now one more time before I go cuz I want to be sure it's sunken in...
"Anti. Magic. Nothing. Happens."
Very good.

Happy adventuring.
--Steel Dragons.

 

[Jhaelen]

We always played that only the part or the target in the antimagic are suppressed/unaffected once the antimagic moves or wears off the spell or effect is back.
You can't cast a spell in an antimagic zone nor affect someone in antimagic at the moment you cast the spell unless it's an ongoing spell in the area and the antimagic ends or moves leaving the target in that area.

This. Point of origin is irrelevant in most cases if you remember that you cannot cast spells _at all_ while within an antimagic area and you cannot target anything within an antimagic area.

For target areas, the part of the area outside the antimagic area is affected and the part inside isn't.

 

[Skagul]

I don't know that I see the "problem"...anti-magic=no magic. So...no magic. There is no magic possible within an antimagic field.

Nothing happens because...nothing has happened magic-wise. See above.


I am confused why you think someone can cast within an antimagic field.

But again, if the caster is IN the antimagic field...then no actual casting takes place.

Say it with me...Anti-magic...Nothing happens. The magic is negated/dissipated/dispelled at the perimeter of the antimagic field.

D) None of the above. Spell is not cast. Period. Caster doesn't LOSE the spell because the spell was not cast. Magical energies are not able to be accessed within an antimagic field.

Now one more time before I go cuz I want to be sure it's sunken in...
"Anti. Magic. Nothing. Happens."
Very good.

Happy adventuring.
--Steel Dragons.

I had a feeling that ''antimagic = no magic'' might be mentioned, & i'm inclined to use such house rule ('cause it simplifies a lot of things), but according to Rules Compendium & Rules of the Game: Magical Oddities (Part Three) antimagice only supresses magic, doesn't negates it (for example Forgotten Realms has antimagic & no-magic areas).
So you can cast the spell, you have used your spell slot & your spell is functioning, it is only being supressed; if your spell has instantaneous duration (CLW, Fireball) your spell is effectively canceled.
If you try to cast, lets say, Mage Armor in antimagic you can & it will work, but it will be suppressed while you are in antimagic; if you move outside, it is not being suppressed & it works normaly, you go back in it get suppressed again, and so on.

This is from Rules Compendium

Spells don’t function in an antimagic area, but an antimagic area doesn’t block line of effect. If a spell’s point of origin is inside an antimagic area, that spell is entirely suppressed. When a spell’s point of origin is located outside an antimagic area, but part of that spell’s area overlaps the antimagic area, that spell’s effect is suppressed where the two areas overlap. Time elapsed within an antimagic area still counts against a spell’s duration. If an instantaneous spell is entirely suppressed, that spell is effectively canceled. (It’s suppressed, and its duration instantaneously expires.) An instantaneous area spell is only entirely suppressed and effectively canceled if its point of origin is within the antimagic area. Otherwise it works like any other area spell that has a point of origin outside the antimagic area—only where its area overlaps the antimagic area is its effect is suppressed (and effectively canceled).

Now the problematic spells are those whose effect is outside of antimagic (Conviction, Mass has a Medium range, so it can be cast so that it doesn't affect tha caster; also Flame Strike - it doesn't travel from the caster, it merely falls where you wish it) - that's why i'm asking where the Point of Origin is
Althoughit seem that Wizards Design & Development had the same problem http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20051216a that's why they made 4E

 

[steeldragons]

I had a feeling that ''antimagic = no magic'' might be mentioned, & i'm inclined to use such house rule ('cause it simplifies a lot of things), but according to Rules Compendium & Rules of the Game: Magical Oddities (Part Three) antimagice only suppresses magic, doesn't negates it (for example Forgotten Realms has antimagic & no-magic areas).
So you can cast the spell, you have used your spell slot & your spell is functioning, it is only being suppressed; if your spell has instantaneous duration (CLW, Fireball) your spell is effectively canceled.

Then my vote goes for Yes, house rule it. Because THIS...

If you try to cast, lets say, Mage Armor in antimagic you can & it will work, but it will be suppressed while you are in antimagic; if you move outside, it is not being suppressed & it works normally, you go back in it get suppressed again, and so on.

...is just stupid...and completely illogical. HOW are you able to cast (and lose a slot) in an area where magic energies can not, by its very definition, penetrate?

This is from Rules Compendium

All things would be significantly easier (and I daresay, IMHO, games more fun) if everyone just did away with the ruddy Rules Compendium.

Now the problematic spells are those whose effect is outside of antimagic (Conviction, Mass has a Medium range, so it can be cast so that it doesn't affect tha caster; also Flame Strike - it doesn't travel from the caster, it merely falls where you wish it) - that's why i'm asking where the Point of Origin is

I understand why you are asking and yes, by the RC it would stand to reason that you could cast Flame Strike (or Mass Conviction) centered on someone/somewhere outside the anti-magic field and it would work. By the RC you quoted, that's how it would work.

If it were my game, no way in hell would I allow this.

--SD

 

[Jhaelen]

Okay, apparently my 3e rules know how is already a bit rusty. Let's see...

Have you looked at the definition of line of effect?

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).

So there's your answer for a whole bunch of spells.

 

[radmod]

There's no need to call it a house rule because it isn't. It is RAW.

So you can cast the spell, you have used your spell slot & your spell is functioning, it is only being supressed;

From your post (and the RC):

Spells don’t function in an antimagic area

'function' means to work or operate. You can legally cast a spell within an anti-magic field yet the casting does not work since the activation of the spell is a function of the spell itself. Think of it this way, a car has the function of transportation. Yet, it also has a function of starting. If I cast an anti-ignition field on your car, the function of the car's starting would be suppressed. If you pushed the car out of my field, it would not automatically start because the instantaneous function of it starting was suppressed and no longer exists. You could, of course, restart it (e.g. recast).

However, let us presume that you can cast within the field. However, none of the functions of the spell work. Since none of the functions work, you cannot have a point of origin since it is a function of the spell. Duration, however, is specifically exempted.

Finally, from the glossary entry for point of origin

The location in space where a spell or magical effect begins. The caster designates the point of origin for any spells in which it is variable.

This does not ignore the fact that a spell can have two points of origin: where the spell begins and where the caster wishes the magical effect to begin. Since a spell always begins where a caster casts it, then the initial point of origin of the spell is "entirely suppressed."

The problem with the WOTC article is, well, the WOTC articles. They are old and contradictory and, from my experience, often just plain wrong. Note, for example, it says an AMF blocks LOE, but the RC says otherwise. I sometimes think they cause more harm than good and should either be deleted or labeled with a big "May no longer be applicable" sign.