D&D 4E Points of Light, Dawn War, and Magic Item Economy (4e)

[AbdulAlhazred]

Trick is legends and myths arent normally a team game *(having a singular hero jump into the next tier is ok) and face it playing the incompetent thief hobbit alongside the paragon Aragorn works really crappy in every version of D&D if it were Fate and you can give the hobbit real luck bonuses and can make Meek and overlooked and sought after by Ring Lord even more powerful than the awesome of the Returning King it is different.

None of that is in dispute...

However, I would like to say that any use of LotR as a commentary on disparity of power between characters drastically misses the point of that piece of fiction. Aragorn, the supremely equipped and endowed by fate heir to the throne of Gondor (and by extension is descended from at least one demi-god depending on how you parse such things) has no more impact on the STORY than Samwise Gamgee, an itinerant gardener and 'Man Friday' halfling with no pedigree or experience at all. The other characters, regardless of overt power, appear to manifest equal story impact. Every single one of the Fellowship plays a pivotal role in events (well, Gimli and Legolas perhaps less so than the others, and Boromir's part is somewhat inadvertent, though he does act as a catalyst.

My point is, really if you look at it, if you want a system that is more amenable to the various types of legends and myths you find, and even basic folklore, you would probably want to use a more distinctly story-oriented system where things like 'great fighting prowess' are just attributes on a par with other ones like 'incredible loyalty and determination' etc. Some sort of, perhaps FATE-like system would handle LotR for example. In such a game the choices of the players would be about applying their character's attributes to the various situations to see what happens, and not so much in a morass of technical details which basically say "no, your weak halfling cannot defeat a giant spider demon in battle, even with a magic sword."

I would say a lot of the canon of German Folklore and legend would quite happily fit within the same sort of paradigm.

With D&D (and 4e maybe even in particular) you cannot expect that. The game is very prevalent, and it says you have to work your way up to 25th level before you really have any chance at all to gank Demogorgon. It also mandates, logically, that all the PCs go through basically the same development process and they are granted basically the same mechanical heft in terms of combat ability, etc. AD&D is a good bit looser there, but it isn't REALLY trying to be radically different in that respect. It was just designed to allow more for 'troupe play' and envisages situations where some PCs will be 'primary' and others might be more 'hangers-on' at that point in time. This does sometimes let it emulate literature/legend a bit better, but not always, and the game aspect does suffer at times, depending on how you WANT the game to work.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

@AbudlAlhazrd obviously knows how his system works in detail. In principle I assume there can be tier-gated items just as there are tier-gated feats and tier-gated powers. But if Excalibur is super-powered then the issue of how to balance Arthur against the rest of the party is no different from standard issues of balance in 4e. (That is, pretty easily dealt with provided that those other players are also having their PCs go out and do stuff to earn boons etc.)

I don't quite see what the problem is that you're seeing.

(Whether Arthur is best done in 4e, or Cortex+ Heroic, or Fate, or Prince Valiant - my bid! - or Pendragon is a different quesetion I put to one side.)

Yeah, Boons (of which items are simply a manifestation) are given a level. I don't have 'rules' which say you have to get things in only a specific level range, but it usually makes more sense in terms of the play of the game if you give a level 4 PC a boon that is at least in the 'heroic' range. I would generally prefer to manifest an artifact in the game if I was desiring to have something radically out of the normal power scale. Excalibur certainly seems like a prime candidate to be such. Another option would be to simply assign boons to the item over time, so it essentially becomes this incredibly built-up focus of the PC's power, but is technically just a normal item of expected levels (though obviously loosing it would suck a LOT).

 

[Garthanos]

It also mandates, logically, that all the PCs go through basically the same development process and they are granted basically the same mechanical heft in terms of combat ability, etc. AD&D is a good bit looser there, but it isn't REALLY trying to be radically different in that respect. It was just designed to allow more for 'troupe play' and envisages situations where some PCs will be 'primary' and others might be more 'hangers-on' at that point in time.

Yeh I played the 9th level sidekick to casters and the level 1 magic user who pretty much just watched because he didnt win the spell lotto, both...

I will say this wrt to magic item economy.... I really really felt a cheer rising when i heard that 3e had an expected wealth by level. Because I thought Monty and Stingy now have something clear like a big old mirror

 

[Garthanos]

but is technically just a normal item of expected levels (though obviously loosing it would suck a LOT).

AND in most heroic fantasy only a short temporary state where you do a kind of a one on one adventure where the hero becomes obsessed with doing it himself and most of the obstacles he discovers he can indeed tackle without the device or maybe it danger steps up his hero allies save his ass at the last second and he either re-aquires the item or discovers some awesome replacement encapsulating the same number of boons!!!!!! OR perhaps ONE more.

Basically its tuning the story to the Hero and I think that is part of the point of D&D and yes HoML

 

[Garthanos]

With D&D (and 4e maybe even in particular) you cannot expect that.

When I took a shot at building Frodo in 4e I made him half lazylord and half rogue where I picked control and stealth abilities minimizing the striker part of rogue as much as possible with lazylord inspiring allies combine some flavoring of combat effectiveness as bald faced luck... it kind of works but yes an actual "storyteller" game is going to take it to its actual function

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

There is a direct connection between HoML level and the boons you have gathered its not probemative wrt level not meaning over all power or there not being a good way to estimate power because of nebulosity.

The issue of items being "sudden" uber power is really the discussion since Abdul Identified it as the part of the magic item economy that makes items impressive. And I do not think its about HoML

I am still on team story making items more interesting and in general unlocking their power and in HomL gaining the boons gradually makes the super items much cooler than huge "sudden" number burst. Or going a mass of time while others are leveling up gaining boons and your arthur waits his big boost.

Right, level cannot really be subverted in HoML, unless of course a PC was somehow built in a hyper-optimized fashion which allowed for a vastly greater effectiveness. I don't think that's really possible, as it is still effectively a 4e-like AEDU type of system. I guess some boons are better than others to an extent, but then you'd really have to push the 'narrative focus' part of boon acquisition in order to thoroughly min/max.

 

[Garthanos]

None of that is in dispute...

However, I would like to say that any use of LotR as a commentary on disparity of power between characters drastically misses the point of that piece of fiction.

I definitely feel I wasn't missing the point there can be power that isnt the same obvious stuff normally modeled by D&D and fiction of whatever kind models that in a way D&D is generally not great at doing.

I made the Princess Build Warlord and part of the point of it was that even in combat inspiring the "powerful" and sticking with them in spite of all the danger persevering through it winning against that demon spider on your own by luck (Of course with fate we can do something harder or bigger like taking out a tower of Goblins/Orcs via fate points turning them against each other) is kind of being another style of hero its the hero in over their head and I think it ought to be a planned thing. It wasn't about creating an NPC.

Wrecan built a whole Luck Power Source which is indeed not the same as that story power but it seems like something not entirely divergent from what a game where hit points represent nebulous things can do.

 

[pemerton]

I would like to say that any use of LotR as a commentary on disparity of power between characters drastically misses the point of that piece of fiction. Aragorn, the supremely equipped and endowed by fate heir to the throne of Gondor (and by extension is descended from at least one demi-god depending on how you parse such things) has no more impact on the STORY than Samwise Gamgee, an itinerant gardener and 'Man Friday' halfling with no pedigree or experience at all. The other characters, regardless of overt power, appear to manifest equal story impact. Every single one of the Fellowship plays a pivotal role in events (well, Gimli and Legolas perhaps less so than the others, and Boromir's part is somewhat inadvertent, though he does act as a catalyst.

My point is, really if you look at it, if you want a system that is more amenable to the various types of legends and myths you find, and even basic folklore, you would probably want to use a more distinctly story-oriented system where things like 'great fighting prowess' are just attributes on a par with other ones like 'incredible loyalty and determination' etc. Some sort of, perhaps FATE-like system would handle LotR for example. In such a game the choices of the players would be about applying their character's attributes to the various situations to see what happens, and not so much in a morass of technical details which basically say "no, your weak halfling cannot defeat a giant spider demon in battle, even with a magic sword."

For LotR, I think a version of Cortex+ Heroic could do it - the mechanics would work well, but you'd need to do some redesign around PC building. Fate I assume would have no trouble. HeroQuest Revised none. And I reckon Prince Valiant might give it a red-hot go.

 

[Garthanos]

I definitely feel I wasn't missing the point there can be power that isnt the same obvious stuff normally modeled by D&D and fiction of whatever kind models that in a way D&D is generally not great at doing.

I made the Princess Build Warlord and part of the point of it was that even in combat inspiring the "powerful" and sticking with them in spite of all the danger persevering through it winning against that demon spider on your own by luck (Of course with fate we can do something harder or bigger like taking out a tower of Goblins/Orcs via fate points turning them against each other) is kind of being another style of hero its the hero in over their head and I think it ought to be a planned thing. It wasn't about creating an NPC.

Wrecan built a whole Luck Power Source which is indeed not the same as that story power but it seems like something not entirely divergent from what a game where hit points represent nebulous things can do.

Perhaps we need ahem luck practices and allow an effect which turns a swarm of enemies of tier appropriate size against themselves disabling them long enough for one to escape