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Poison in literature and in gaming

In the real world, getting stabbed through the stomach with a sword is usually fatal, or at least incapacitating. D&D runs on a heroic (if not super-heroic) level that doesn't imitate that.

I disagree.

D&D has absolutely no rules that provide for being stabbed through the stomach with a sword. In D&D, by the rules, it doesn't happen. Moreover, according to Gygax himself in the 1e AD&D DMG in his discussion of hit points, the color of being stabbed through the torso by a sword should only happen on player death. High level PC's are somewhat tougher than low level PC's, but not so much tougher that they can resist multiple otherwise lethal wounds. Rather, per his discussion the 8 hit points of damage that might represent being run through when the damage is delivered to a humanoid with only 4 hit points, represents instead only a superficial scratch when dealt to a humanoid with 40 hit points. The color of the wound changes relative to the amount of hit points the character has remaining, and the color of a fatal or debilitating wound only happens when the hit points run out.

It is entirely inaccurate in the traditional approach to hit points to suggest therefore that D&D either suggests that high level PC's ever get stabbed through by a sword and are capable of shrugging it off, or conversely that high level PC's are ever damaged without taking at least some wound (however minor). But in any event, "being stabbed through the stomach with a sword" isn't something even in the rules of D&D as a predicate to the outcome "being stabbed through the stomach is usually fatal", so it would be improper to suggest that it runs on a heroic model where being stabbed through the stomach with a sword isn't usually fatal. How heroic or how gritty D&D actually is, is more a matter of level and color than any thing in the rules itself.

Or to put it another way, how you think about the rules is at least as important as the rules themselves. If some DM colors attacks on a PC as being run through with a sword and the PC shrugging off that damage, then you are right - for that approach to the rules, D&D is running on a heroic model that doesn't imitate that getting stabbed through with a sword is a serious event. But while that is on some level a perfectly fine approach for a table to take if everyone consents to it, it's not something D&D's rules have actually encouraged.

To the extent that D&D has a 'heroic model', it's more in that D&D does not model the unheroic aspects of being wounded at all, or at least, doesn't strongly encourage the DM to do so. The majority of deaths from a sword wound don't result from the wound at all, but rather from blood loss in the minutes and hours following the wound, and infection in the wound during the days following. But few if any RPGs actually deal with that level of detail, regardless of how much of a 'heroic model' they are trying to present. As such, I don't think you can say that D&D is consciously going for a 'heroic model', so much as - just as with lingering poison or disease and its side effects - D&D eschews certain sorts of realism that creates onerous bookkeeping in favor of ease of gameplay.
 
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I disagree.

D&D has absolutely no rules that provide for being stabbed through the stomach with a sword. In D&D, by the rules, it doesn't happen.

THIS is the hill you chose to take your stand on?

Okay, fine. PHB, pg 6. "The DM narrates the results of the adventurer's actions."

Getting stabbed in the stomach sounds like a valid description.

Saying that there are no hit locations means that no one can ever be stabbed on any part of their body is, in fact, incorrect. With the abstract meaning of HPs it's not tracked at that level, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen following the rules that the DM narrates the outcomes of the rolls and the PC's actions.

If you can only understand hard crunch rules, then tell me that multiple characters falling 500 feet to get up and keep fighting (avg dmg = 70 HPs) is not more heroic then real life.
 

Part of the difference (in d20, at least) is that even non-heroic characters (the 4 hp commoner, for example) cannot die from many poisons (str/int/wis/dex/chr poisons for example) but can certainly die from a fall off of a 500 foot cliff, or even a successful long sword attack. Poison seems to be almost unique in its relative non-lethality to nobodies.
 

THIS is the hill you chose to take your stand on?

Sure. I'm well prepared up here on the top, and the slope is pretty steep making assaults likely to fail.

Okay, fine. PHB, pg 6. "The DM narrates the results of the adventurer's actions."

You're in the general discussion area, so you'll have to tell me which PHB you mean.

However, even if we concede, "The DM narrates the results of the adventurer's actions.", it does not follow that the particular description of "getting stabbed in the stomach" is valid, much less that "you get run through by a sword but shrug it off as a minor wound" is a valid description. In fact, even if we concede, "getting stabbed in the stomach" is a valid outcome of the adventurer's actions, it doesn't follow that it is ever valid except in the case of the PC being killed or incapacitated (that is reduced below 0 hit points). That is to say, if a PC has 50 hit points, and a sword blow does 8 damage, it does not follow that a DM correctly narrates this as, "The sword goes right through your guts.", much less that the rules actually encourage that particular narration.

This is particularly true because since the beginning of D&D, Gygax explicitly called out this very description - being run through by a sword but not actually being killed or even severely inconvenienced thereby as ridiculous and not implied by the hit point system. Indeed, he explicitly stated that DMs that engaged in such narration misunderstood what hit points were and were doing it wrong. To understand otherwise is a misunderstanding in every edition of D&D that I'm aware of. Even 4e, which has a different hit point model that other editions, carries this the other way, with hit points being less 'meat' than they had been rather than more 'meat'.

Saying that there are no hit locations means that no one can ever be stabbed on any part of their body is, in fact, incorrect.

Saying that people can be stabbed on any part of their body is not the same as saying that either the rules provide for it, or that such color occurs at any time other than when such a wound would be "fatal, or at least incapacitating." Remember, it's not merely your assertion that D&D provides for PC's to be stabbed in particular parts of their body, but that it provides for PC's to be stabbed in particular parts of their body and also that it explicitly does not imitate the fatal or incapacitating nature of such blows. It is a total misunderstanding of how D&D has approached wounding to assert that the color of an attack is lethal or incapacitating, but the mechanics of that attack are not lethal or incapacitating! You have it precisely backwards. Attacks of a lethal or incapacitating nature have that color if and only if the mechanics suggest the attack is lethal or incapacitating. Eight hit points of damage on a PC with 60 total hit points are not (in general) properly to be narrated as, "The orc slices your head off, but you shrug off this wound and reattach your head." Generally speaking, if the color of the narration is, "The orc slices your head off.", you are barring some unique supernatural ability, very much quite dead regardless of how many hit points you have left. But you would as a GM generally not narrate the result of 8 hit points of damage as, "The orc slices your head off.", unless and until those eight points of damage in fact do kill your PC.

Or in other words, just because the DM narrates the results of the player actions, does not mean D&D combat is meant to look like or is encouraged to look like the fight between King Arthur and the Black Knight, where limbs go flying but "it's only a flesh wound".

Indeed, if limbs explicitly go flying as the mechanical result of an attack, it is in fact very incapacitating. And if your head goes flying as the explicit mechanical result of an attack, you are in fact dead, hit points remaining or not. An example of this approach is found in the 2e super-module "Axe of the Dwarven Lords". It's just that, as I said, normally D&D has no rules specifying any such mechanical result.

With the abstract meaning of HPs it's not tracked at that level, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen following the rules that the DM narrates the outcomes of the rolls and the PC's actions.

Again, but it does not mean it ever happens except when the blow really is mechanically lethal and incapacitating. Any "heroism" involved in D&D does not come explicitly from the ability of the hero to shrug off the blows of giants or what have you.

If you can only understand hard crunch rules, then tell me that multiple characters falling 500 feet to get up and keep fighting (avg dmg = 70 HPs) is not more heroic then real life.

I don't know what you mean by understanding only hard crunch rules, but you've once again missed the point. I admit that falling (and its counter part, submersion in acid/lava) have always been sticky points in the hit points description, but conceptually they do not have to be any different than the afore mentioned sword swings. If a character falls 500 feet, and gets up to keep fighting (because he has hit points remaining), then it is not the case that he fell straight down without breaking his fall in any fashion straight on to hard rocks without any padding. Rather, the DMing narrating this result invents appropriate heroic actions, luck, and divine providence to explain how the hero mitigated the 500 foot fall and so saved his own life and prevented the death and traumatic injuries resulting from such a fall. It does not follow that the hero is simply a brick that can survive such falls without damage. Rather he slows his fall by some mechanism and fortunately lands on something soft or yielding.

That is certainly "more heroic than real life", but not in the fashion you describe when you suggest that the player character is capable of shrugging off being stabbed through the stomach.

The controversy around the realism of falling that has been with D&D since the early days comes from the fact that the fortune of an attack is generally determined before the color. That is, we know mechanically the results of an attack before we invent a color narration to describe it. But for many DMs, falling seems to move fortune from the middle of the resolution to the end of it, and certainly does in most DMs natural approach to the scene. That is, typically we narrate that the character has fallen before we calculate the damage of the fall. In the case of narrating a 500' free fall plunge on to rocks, the amount of damage typically levied by D&D as falling damage seems radically insufficient, and to many DMs always has. That's why you will find, going back to the earliest days of D&D, various suggestions for increased falling damage to cause falling damage to behave better given the assumptions of the system. You'll also notice that Gygax frequently in his modules rules such fortune at the end scenarios to be simply instant death with no possibility of the save. That is, if the PC really free falls 500' onto rocks, or really is dumped onto lava, or really submerged in a huge vat of acid, there is no point in calculating damage at that point since the result has already been determined and is realistically lethal. There is only a point in calculating damage to see if such things actually happened.
 
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Actually, only HCN is as swift as media likes to portray. Cyanide salts or most organo-cyanides take much longer to kill someone as they have to get protonized by the gastric acid in order to "do their job".
 

Actually, only HCN is as swift as media likes to portray. Cyanide salts or most organo-cyanides take much longer to kill someone as they have to get protonized by the gastric acid in order to "do their job".

Which is why it's the gas of choice for modern gas chambers on death rows that have them.

...and it's tough to put a gas on a sword.
 

Getting stabbed in the stomach sounds like a valid description.
It is, but it's not a rule. The DM can say you were stabbed in the stomach, the rules never dictate that such has happened.

The rules just aren't deterministic that way, they way they are with death at -10 or three failed death saves or whatever. And you can't argue from 'well, getting stabbed in the stomach does such-and-such, realistically' to 'this rule is wrong because it doesn't do such-and-such,' because the rule isn't for being stabbed in the stomach, there is no such rule, it's visualization. So, when the game gives you results inconsistent with being stabbed in the stomach, don't visualize it as getting stabbed in the stomach.

...according to Gygax himself in the 1e AD&D DMG in his discussion of hit points...
It is entirely inaccurate in the traditional approach to hit points to suggest therefore that D&D either suggests that high level PC's ever get stabbed through by a sword and are capable of shrugging it off,
Sure, yes, all true. In fairness, EGG's treatise on hit points was pretty clearly in response to the fairly virulent mocking the very concept of hps had been getting. Back in the day, I remember people joking about characters becoming denser or bigger as they leveled, or drinking many fatal doses of poison or whatnot, to illustrate just what a no-good/stoopid/very-bad game D&D was...

or conversely that high level PC's are ever damaged without taking at least some wound (however minor).
Actually, also in the 1e DMG, a closely-related treatise on poison saves (appropriately enough given the topic), makes it clear that taking damage doesn't always mean taking an actual wound. (Really, the hp treatise also strongly implies that.)

just as with lingering poison or disease and its side effects - D&D eschews certain sorts of realism that creates onerous bookkeeping in favor of ease of gameplay.
Hmm... it also eschews 'death spiral' mechanics, which is kinda heroic (doesn't block the heroic come-from-behind-wind trope), and good for playability.


In fantasy literature, there are many tales of poison that, either slowly or quickly, will kill its victim.
Lots of things kill people. Poison. Disease. Drowning. Ligature stangulation. Smoke inhalation. Falling from a great height. Tripping and hitting your head on a rock. Choking on a chicken bone. Guns. Swords. Knives. Rolled-up newspapers. Hat pins.

So, you get poked with a hat pin. d2 damage or save-or-die?

But it could kill you!


The poisoner in Best Served Cold, for example, is very effective at killing people outright (and often within moments) with the slightest drop of poison, rarely needing a weapon at all (and if so it would be a minor one, like a blowgun dart).
Maybe they were all 0 level and his poison just automatically did 10 damage no save?

In D&D (for example) this is almost impossible to do by itself. You can maybe weaken someone with ability damage
OK, in D&D, 10 years ago, or PF, today.

More recently, D&D poison has just done hp damage (like an RQ 'blade venom' c1978, way to innovate, D&D), or even /just/ inflicted a condition that weakens you (no ability drain, no death).

Is this a general problem in gaming - is "save or die" (or heck, just "die") poison too quick and lethal to be fun in games? Or is it the other way around, and literature has made poison so very deadly for literary reasons?
It's too quick and lethal even to be realistic - the fastest poisons take something like 30 seconds to kill. That's 5 rounds, most combats'd be over. (Mind you, they may be debilitating faster than that.)

But, just in general, something can kill you, use a mechanic that kills people. In D&D, hp damage, in Hero, a Killing Attack, etc...


Now, poisons can also do interesting thing in genre. Like kill very slowly, but inexorably. Or be stopped by an antidote. Slow poison with the possibility of an antidote could be the mundane answer to a Geas or curse.
 
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I really enjoyed the take on poisons in 4E's executioner class. I loved how each poison had an in-combat application that had a generally less potent effect (e.g., X damage each round until they make a successful saving throw) when applied to a weapon and a non-combat application that had a more potent and more story-oriented effect (e.g., weakened or paralyzed until they take a long rest) when the poison is consumed or contacted dermally. I thought making the poisons useful in both arenas was very clever. And they may not have been accurate for real world poisons but were perfectly appropriate for a fantasy setting and for a game.
 

It is, but it's not a rule. The DM can say you were stabbed in the stomach, the rules never dictate that such has happened.

It was a bit of narrative. I never said that getting stabbed in the stomach has specific rules that cover it, it was a bit of fiction ttalking about how heroic D&D characters are.

BUT, that said, DMs *have* described blows as stomach wounds. At least one - I've done it on a nasty crit. DMs are not only allowed to do, but required by the rules to narrate what happens. They can do that in many ways, and they are all correct.

Again, you're focusing on a specific bit of description showing the game to be heroic or super-heroic, and then trying to discredit that bit of narrative, perhaps under some belief that it's the only thing that shows D&D characters as heroic. If that's not it, I'm not sure why folks have such a continued insistence on focusing on that bit of description.
 
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Except that it is a rule. Even gave the quote and page number from 5e D&D if you're interested. The DM narrates what happens is perhaps one of the most important rules of 5e. Just about everything revolves around it.
Heh. "We know the rules: there are no rules." ;)

Seriously, though, I'm not saying the rules don't say that, I'm saying the rules don't dictate that a particular hit is necessarily 'stabbed in the stomach,' what hp damage means is non-deterministic in D&D.
If I'm playing Fantasy Hero, with hit locations in use, hit with a spear, and roll, I think it was a 12, that'd be a killing attack to the stomach, which'd be pretty nasty if the target isn't wearing armor on that location - that's the rule, it's 'deterministic:' hit location 12 = stomach.
In D&D, if I attack with a spear & hit, I do some hp damage, for the sake of typing something, let's say 8. That's it, where I hit, or even if the 'hit' actually touched him, just bruised him through armor, or made him bleed, is all up to the DM to describe, with very little guidance, and no mechanical consequences, and none of that's determined by the rule.

The point is that no one can argue that a spear doing 8 hps of damage is 'unrealistic' or 'wrong' or 'badly models genre' /because getting stabbed in the stomach doesn't map to 8 hps of damage/. Because the rules say 8hps, not 'stabbed in the stomach.' If the DM narrates it as something you think doesn't fit, you can take it up with the DM, but the rules are insulated from criticism on that level. FWIW (nothing, I'm guess'n).
 

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