Poisons? You're kidding right?

[direkobold]

The price is simple. D&D economy turn around the characters. And if you say that poison is an epic level item, it should cost as one.

If you price the items arithmetically, then its easy to get items of higher level. For the game system, it doesn't matter if you could buy a kingdom with this poison. It matter if the level adequate character cam buy it, and how easily.

Just to be clear I don't object to a level 25 poison costing 150k. I object to it doing so little for 150k.

 

[Wormwood]

It costs the same amount of money to make something on your own as to buy it?

Yep---and that's the point. Now if you don't like 'magic item shops', you can remove them from your campaign while retaining the underlying pricing structure (itself tied to the level system).

I feel sorry for all those players who enjoyed playing yankee traders and pawnbrokers---but that's not my play-style and frankly I don't think it's 4e's either.

 

[Particle_Man]

I think you guys are missing a major advantage here:

A small bottle of liquid is worth about 150 000 gp. Small bottles of liquid could (if the bottle is a sturdy metal not glass/crystal) thus be used as a form of portable currency, rather than those cumbersome coins and gems.

 

[Grazzt]

Name me ANYTHING that does more than 15 ongoing damage.

Ancient red dragon's inferno aura deals ongoing 20 fire damage

Beholder's disintegrate ray deals ongoing 2d20 (yes, 2d20) damage

Not exactly ongoing damage, but a PC swallowed by an elder purple worm takes 20 damage plus 20 acid damage each round

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Yep---and that's the point. Now if you don't like 'magic item shops', you can remove them from your campaign while retaining the underlying pricing structure (itself tied to the level system).

I feel sorry for all those players who enjoyed playing yankee traders and pawnbrokers---but that's not my play-style and frankly I don't think it's 4e's either.

And when a player says "Hold on, I call BS. How are these people making money?"

I supposed I just say "Stop thinking about it. CHOO CHOOOOO!"

 

[Cadfan]

DM: As Torkon finishes his meal, the world goes hazy. He collapses to the floor. Torkon, take 5,000 points of poison damage.
Joe, player of Torkon: WHAT???
DM: Torkon ate cyanide. Enough to kill an elephant, in fact. It was in the pudding.
Joe: What are you talking about? I should have tasted it and stopped eating!
DM: Cyanide is tasteless, duh.
Joe: Torkons a dwarf, I should be resistant.
DM: Right, you get +5 to your saving throw to avoid taking 5,000 points of poison damage again next round.
Joe: This is stupid!
DM: No, its realistic. Cyanide is tasteless, and it kills you. Torkon ate cyanide, he didn't notice, and now he's dead.
Joe: There aren't any poisons in the DMG that do that much damage! You made that up just to kill Torkon!
DM: No, I didn't, and I take serious offense to your suggestion that I'm picking on you. The DMG doesn't have poisons that do that much damage because the DMG is based on wussy notions of "balance" and "fair play," instead of hardbitten realism. I play MANLY dungeons and dragons, and in my game, poison kills you.
Joe: This is stupid.
DM: Tough.

 

[dervish]

Of course you can either drop the price a few notches or increase the effect of the poison (50 ongoing damage, drops dead after three rounds, etc). The thing to consider is that all character will then always be using poison. In 1e, which had lots of lethal venoms, they right out said in the DMG that characters shouldn't use poison unless the game look something like: "Characters see big dragon, characters fire volley of poisoned arrows, dragon fails one of many saving throws, looting commences."

 

[phloog]

DM: As Torkon finishes his meal, the world goes hazy. He collapses to the floor. Torkon, take 5,000 points of poison damage.
(SNIP) - - -the DMG is based on wussy notions of "balance" and "fair play," instead of hardbitten realism. I play MANLY dungeons and dragons, and in my game, poison kills you.
Joe: This is stupid.
DM: Tough.

I don't think the original poster was arguing for instant kill poison, but for something worthy of the price tag...truly epic.

I would agree that it's sad that the strongest poison could do 15 points of damage and then 'wear off', if that's what the save does.

For me the point wouldn't be that I want an insta-kill poison (and I think that your post is attempting exaggeration to a silly extreme, then using that silly extreme as the argument)....for me the point would be to have a poison with a DRAMATIC role...if the most insidious poison in the world gets a 'meh' from the average character, there's no real drama. Should there be insta-kill poisons? Probably not, but there need to be poisons that fill a dramatic role - that add to tension in a way that 15 points per round doesn't really seem to do.

Maybe that's my biggest problem with 4E - I would rather have an interesting story than a perfectly balanced system.

 

[Grazzt]

I don't think the original poster was arguing for instant kill poison, but for something worthy of the price tag...truly epic.

I would agree that it's sad that the strongest poison could do 15 points of damage and then 'wear off', if that's what the save does.

For me the point wouldn't be that I want an insta-kill poison (and I think that your post is attempting exaggeration to a silly extreme, then using that silly extreme as the argument)....for me the point would be to have a poison with a DRAMATIC role...if the most insidious poison in the world gets a 'meh' from the average character, there's no real drama. Should there be insta-kill poisons? Probably not, but there need to be poisons that fill a dramatic role - that add to tension in a way that 15 points per round doesn't really seem to do.

Maybe that's my biggest problem with 4E - I would rather have an interesting story than a perfectly balanced system.

As suggested by someone above perhaps setting up poisons to follow the damage track like diseases do might make them a bit more lethal.

 

[Grazzt]

DM: As Torkon finishes his meal, the world goes hazy. He collapses to the floor. Torkon, take 5,000 points of poison damage.
Joe, player of Torkon: WHAT???
DM: Torkon ate cyanide. Enough to kill an elephant, in fact. It was in the pudding.
Joe: What are you talking about? I should have tasted it and stopped eating!
DM: Cyanide is tasteless, duh.
Joe: Torkons a dwarf, I should be resistant.
DM: Right, you get +5 to your saving throw to avoid taking 5,000 points of poison damage again next round.
Joe: This is stupid!
DM: No, its realistic. Cyanide is tasteless, and it kills you. Torkon ate cyanide, he didn't notice, and now he's dead.
Joe: There aren't any poisons in the DMG that do that much damage! You made that up just to kill Torkon!
DM: No, I didn't, and I take serious offense to your suggestion that I'm picking on you. The DMG doesn't have poisons that do that much damage because the DMG is based on wussy notions of "balance" and "fair play," instead of hardbitten realism. I play MANLY dungeons and dragons, and in my game, poison kills you.
Joe: This is stupid.
DM: Tough.

Nope. Too long of a discussion.

DM: Save or die.
Joe: Why?
DM: Because I said so...