Poisons? You're kidding right?

[keterys]

On a plus note, at least poison in 4e actually does anything at all to PCs of more than 11th level

 

[Contents May Vary]

...That does 15 damage

It will on average do almost 30 damage, not 15.

 

[Byronic]

The average person isn't going to get their hands on this poison. Hell, the richest king in all the world, despite likely having more than enough money to afford it by the gallons, has no way of actually purchasing it. If he had the means to aquire such a powerful poison, he'd likely be emperor of the world, not merely a king. It would likely take less than a tenth of a drop to kill most people outright. But that's a story element. The game doesn't need rules for that. If your character gets his hands on some and wants to use it to slay a king who's not an epic-level warrior, chances are the DM's gonna say he simply dies if you manage to find a way to actually administer the poison.

I think the real problem is that this deadly poison is only really deadly to little children, the elderly and minions. True, this is only mechanics and most DMs CAN simply say "the shopkeeper dies" but mechanically it simply doesn't work that way. I had a quick look at the NPCs in Fallcrest. Now, while there were only a few each one of them has a VERY good chance of surviving the venom. And they were all less then level 10, one was just level 5.

So there's less dramatic impact if you're hit by that kind of poison. Now, if you were hit by Black Lotus Extract (a scary high level poison) in 3.x there was drama. Con damage is SCARY. That was a real high level poison, the character has a good chance of surviving if he's a strong beefy man but wizards might be screwed.

Even the lower ones had their dramatic impact. Losing 4 Con damage is scary as well no matter what level you dare. Wouldn't kill you unless your already hurt (and thus in a weakened condition) but it's still scary. Losing Strength or Dex can also cause dramatic and worrying effect. 15-30 damage, does not.

I think I'll steal a bit from Disease to make it extra scary, Allow Heal to stabilise the poison and let Cure Disease double as Cure Poison.

 

[Contents May Vary]

If you apply that poison to a weapon, it will work for up to 5 minutes or until the end of the encounter, whichever is sooner.

I can't see anywhere in the rules that it says that the poison gets used up when you hit with it; it only says 5 mins or until end of encounter.

So perhaps it will keep doing its 15 points of damage every time you hit with the poisoned weapon, for 5 mins? If so, that would be LOTS of extra damage...

 

[Dausuul]

Its not a strawman. Its in response to people who want to know why poison isn't more realistic. The reason poison isn't more realistic is because realistic poison automatically kills you, no save.

Of course, most realistic poisons don't kill for minutes, hours, or sometimes days. Even cyanide takes a couple minutes to kill, though at high doses it can knock you unconscious in a few seconds.

 

[DM_Blake]

I think my problem with this is that, as a DM, I might decide to use this deadliest poison known to man against one of my players, and after the encounter, he will simply use a single Healing Surge and it will be like it never happened.

Having been a survivor of poisoning when I was young and stupid, I still remember how, even days later, my throat and stomach were still achy and irritable.

Seems to me that poisons should do something. Leave some ongoing evidence that you've been poisoned.

3e got it somewhat right. You take damage that will stick with you for days without magical healing.

But the deadliest poison in 4e ceases to exist after a single healing surge.

And it doesn't help that this ultimate poison costs more than the combined wealth of Winterhaven - even if every person living there sold their homes and liquidated their posessions, they probably still couldn't pool their money and afford one dose of this poison.

Yeah, I get it. It's not for sale in Winterhaven for a very good reason.

Still, an ultimate poison that costs that much that really only amounts to expending one extra healing surge, this doesn't bode well for striking fear into my players.

I can see it now:
DM: Oh, by the way, one of the enemies you face has some sickly green goo smeared on his blade.
Player: Poison?
DM: Could be. It has that look to it.
Player: So what? I still have 5 healing surges. That poison can't even hurt me. I attack!
DM: Aren't you worried about getting poisoned?
Player: Nope. Been poisoned lots of times. I just shrug them off. Maybe burn an extra healing surge, but I have plenty. That guy should have spent his money on a flaming sword - that might have made me rethink my tactics.

 

[Contents May Vary]

What's so magical about poison that it should leave all these aftereffects, compared to being sliced up with a dirty great sword?

But the deadliest poison in 4e ceases to exist after a single healing surge.

No it doesn't. If you have it on a blade, you can keep poisoning things for 5 minutes! How many times can you hit something in 5 minutes? Imagine you only hit half the time - that's 450 damage you'd inflict over 5 minutes. And on top of that, you have the debuff effect that the poison does.

If you keep hitting the same monster, that's going to keep it pretty effectively controlled!

 

[Dausuul]

How about this:

SKILL CHALLENGE: POISON
At the DM's option, any poison-based attack can have an an aftereffect. Every character who was hit by the poison-based attack is subject to this aftereffect after the encounter ends. The level of the skill challenge is usually equal to the level of the monster or trap whose attack triggered it. The DM must decide what type the poison is and how quickly it acts (fast-acting, normal, or slow-acting).

Victims cannot recover healing surges as long as this skill challenge continues.

Complexity: 2 (6 successes/3 failures)

PRIMARY SKILLS: Endurance, Heal, Nature, History
Endurance (moderate DCs): Once per minute (fast-acting poisons), once per hour (normal poisons), or once per day (slow-acting poisons), the poison victim must spend a healing surge and make an Endurance check to withstand the poison. Only failures on these checks count toward failing the challenge. If the victim has no more healing surges left, she fails automatically.
Heal (moderate DCs): Another character can make a Heal check to purge the poison. Failure costs the victim a healing surge.
Nature (moderate DCs): A character can make a Nature check to recollect some detail of the poison which can aid a healer. On a successful check, the difficulty of Heal checks is reduced to easy. This can only be attempted once.
History (hard DCs): A character can recollect an instance of an important personage being subject to this poison and what was done to treat it. On a successful check, the difficulty of Heal checks is reduced to easy. This can only be attempted once.

SUCCESS: The victim recovers from the poison with no significant ill effects.
FAILURE: The victim suffers one of the following effects:
Weakening Poison: The victim is weakened for 1 day. Every day, she can make an Endurance check at moderate DC, and one other character can attempt a Heal check at moderate DC. Success on either check results in recovery.
Hallucinogenic Poison: The victim is dazed for 1 day. Every day, she can make an Endurance check at moderate DC, and one other character can attempt a Heal check at moderate DC. Success on either check results in recovery.
Paralytic Poison: The victim is paralyzed for 1 hour. Every hour, she can make an Endurance check at moderate DC, and one other character can attempt a Heal check at moderate DC. Success on either check results in recovery.
Lethal Poison: The victim dies.

 

[Byronic]

No it doesn't. If you have it on a blade, you can keep poisoning things for 5 minutes! How many times can you hit something in 5 minutes? Imagine you only hit half the time - that's 450 damage you'd inflict over 5 minutes. And on top of that, you have the debuff effect that the poison does.

If you keep hitting the same monster, that's going to keep it pretty effectively controlled!

Sorry, as I said in your thread:

I'm afraid that it only works for the first person you hit.

The poison takes effect the next time the weapon hits and deals damage

If a poisoned weapon hits multiple targets, the poison attacks only the first target hit

The next time, not every time in the next five min. And even if you hit someone on your first swing (if you hit multiple people) it'll only work on the first one.

 

[Henry]

Poisons have never made sense in DnD. Save or die didn't even make sense. I guarantee that no matter how lucky I am, if I go into my garage and drink some paint thinner (I have some crazy industrial strength stuff), I will die.

Sort of, but not quite. There's the LD50 (or I've just now read up on FDP) to consider if you want to get realistic. Consider one dose of a D&D poison as a set amount (say, 1/10 or a dram or something) and the save DC (at attack bonus in 4e) as how potent it is compared to weaker poisons. If you wanted a more realistic poison, you'd treat multiple doses of a given poison as "aiding one another" and just make one roll to save or die. So, eachadditional dose of a poison might give a +2 to the attack vs. Fortitude, and every two additional doses would give a -1 to the save roll, to a maximum of +20 to the Fort, and -5 to the save (for using ten doses over the initial amount).

Why do I suggest that instead of just making multiple rolls? Because it gives the character a chance to survive, it cuts down on die rolls, and because there's a small percentage of bastards who are just too tough to die.

I was at first unhappy, because I was thinking that the toughest poison in the book (pit toxin) had only a 25% chance to kill a 1st level wizard! However, I forgot that saves come at the END of the round, not before - meaning that pit toxin is still doing 30 damage before you can even check for a save.

On the other hand, 156 grand for a SINGLE DOSE is a bit too much to me...