Kahuna Burger said:OK, just to make it clear that godless clerics are not a houserule, or even an 'option' the relevant comments from the SRD:
Aura (Ex): A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity’s alignment (see the detect evil spell for details). Clerics who don’t worship a specific deity but choose the Chaotic, Evil, Good, or Lawful domain have a similarly powerful aura of the corresponding alignment.
If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.
Mechanically, no issues. Flavorwise, wouldn't even be considered IMC. Even the Greyhawk branch (which I use for beer-and-pretzels games).Gez said:An example of philosophy: Freedom.
Domains: Travel, Chaos, Good, Knowledge.
Gothmog said:If they are supposed to act in a TN manner, wouldn't they have opposing goals/methods to some of the gods within the pantheon? For example, Bahamut, Moradin, or Tiamat? How would these gods act towards the cleric acting in their name, but sometimes against their interest? It could make for some interesting RP opportunities if the DM followed up on it. Also, where does the power from an alignment come from? And for followers of an alignment, can they use Commune, Miracle, etc since such spells call upon the power of a deity? Or Planar Ally spells since they are unaligned with any of the major powers of the cosmos?
Mercule said:When the cleric casts Commune, who does he speak with?
What entity is actually granting his spells? Etc.
Well, in the case of FR, the worldbook specifically says everyone has to have a patron. Or at least, those few without a patron tend to end up in never-never land when they die; so it's quite reasonable to say that FR clerics must choose a god.Henry said:Usually for campaign-specific reasons, I don't like godless clerics. Mechanically, I see nothing wrong (especially because you can betray yourself as easily as any god), but for most existing campaign worlds (Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Maztica, Scarred Lands, etc.) it doesn't "feel" right to have a patronless Cleric. Some function just fine (Dark Sun, Diamond Throne, to an extent Midnight), but I don't think I'd allow an FR Cleric without a deity, for instance.
Geez, whatever happenned to answers that were interesting and maybe compelling? I could shoot something out of my hindend, too. Doesn't mean I'd think it was anything but a turd.hong said:Geez people, what ever happened to creativity and like, you know, making things up? Isn't that what telling stories is all about?
d4 said:personally, i just have a hard time wrapping my head around someone getting powers from something as nebulous as a "philosophy."
Mercule said:Geez, whatever happenned to answers that were interesting and maybe compelling?
I could shoot something out of my hindend, too. Doesn't mean I'd think it was anything but a turd.
The fact of the matter is that I think godless clerics are garbage,
especially clerics of a philosophy.
Regardless of what sort of an answer anyone dreams up, it comes down to "garbage in, garbage out" IMO.
Depending on the setting, I could see clerics of a "Force of Nature", like the elemental planes or some such. In a setting like this, though, you pretty much have to redefine what "divine" magic is, though.
A forces cleric is really just a different sort of arcane caster -- instead of tapping into the "weave" or what have you, they are tapping into another plane. It definitely isn't the same as tapping into a deity -- not even close.
hong said:Geez people, what ever happened to creativity and like, you know, making things up? Isn't that what telling stories is all about?
Wombat said:The question was "Do you allow godless clerics in your campaign?"
Right. Some people go in for this thing. If so, then we really aren't having the same discussion. I dislike the concept of gods flowing from people, and have in every one of the incarnations in which I have seen it.the Jester said:One thing that's barely been touched on that's very relevant to the discussion is whether the deities are independent from their followers or spawned by thier belief. Does the religion change over time? If so, it's prolly created by the collective belief of the followers. If this is true- if belief empowers the gods- then there's no inherent reason a sufficient amount of belief couldn't also empower a philophy to "grant" spells.
Quite right. But, since no real world religions grant spells, it isn't an apples to apples comparison. I've got no problem with an organization forming around a philosophy. They could even be called a religion. I just don't think the Cleric class is an appropriate way to represent them. If they have spells, then they would be better off being statted as a Wizard/Sorcerer/Bard.Um, also I'd just like to point out that not all real-world religions have gods either. That doesn't mean they don't have priests.