fusangite said:I must say that I have trouble with the idea of an Aristotelian cleric. Aristotelianism was physics; it was science. Understanding Aristotelianism didn't make you an adherent of a worldview, it provided you with an analytical framework. Magic derived from Aristotelianism is arcane magic: you come to understand your world's physics so you can exploit it. Aristotelianism doesn't demand allegiance; it explains the world; that's why it could be grafted onto Christianity so easily to create high medieval thought.
Kormyr the Rat said:See, my D&D campaigns tend to lean heavily on Planescape ideas (in fact, my current game is Planescape), so things like Philosopher-Clerics and other varieties of godless Cleric make sense to me-- as do Clerics who are dyed-in-the-wool representations of their chosen deity and woe be it unto them who would say otherwise.
It ties in very neatly with the constant Planescape theme that beliefs had power all their own.Psion said:Just how is that Planescape?
hong said:So, was it the Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost who granted the Pope domain over the Catholic Church?
fusangite said:it provided you with an analytical framework. Magic derived from Aristotelianism is arcane magic: you come to understand your world's physics so you can exploit it. Aristotelianism doesn't demand allegiance; it explains the world; that's why it could be grafted onto Christianity so easily to create high medieval thought.
Kahuna Burger said:but I've never actually seen a DM place any diety constraints on a cleric... it comes up with paladins, but not clerics, IME.
Storm Raven said:It is annoying when your assumptions about "campaign religion" are completely ignored by the players.
Xeriar said:You are dismissing their faith as mere knowledge of the mortal realm.
Just because Buddhism, Taoism, Confucionism and others (including some forms of early Christianity) have no 'god' does not mean that they aren't spiritual - it's just that the existance or nonexistance of such a god is secondary to the point.
The thing about Taoism and Buddhism is that they aren't about knowledge and interpersonal skills. I don't know why anyone would think that unless they haven't studied these religions.
Umbran said:Yes, but I always discuss my assumptions with the player before the character comes into play. I'll bet that you didn't do so. Communication is key, especially in the religion and alignment departments.
Wraith Form said:(in best Keanu voice): Whoa.
You're all, like, Matrixing out on me, dude.![]()
My personal spiritual belief is, like, way different from what I'd accept in a D&D setting....err, or something.
Storm Raven said:No, he's describing their faith as not being conducive to having members with kewl powerz granted by a figurehead deity.
Do you have to have a cadre of individuals with kewl powerz to have a spiritual bent? Divine spell casters don't have a corner on the concept of spiritual study and enlightenment, they just have a particular method of expressing it.
In D&D terms, their focus would be on things like Knowledge: Philosophy, Knowledge: Religion, and Knowledge: Nature, so in D&D terms, he's pretty much right.
Psion said:I am so on the same page, Storm Raven. The Greyhawk deities and the godless cleric clause have caused me countless headaches every time a player makes a divine spellcaster. I do explain the fact that these are the religions, but "what's in the book" seems to have primacy in the players' mind, despite rule zero.
Storm Raven said:I have been trying to explain to him that I am not telling him how to run his character, just the probable consequences for running his character in the manner he is running it. His response has been that "my choice of deity is nothing more than which domains I select from, and means nothing more". On the other hand, I view the deities as having particular agendas, which they bestow their followers with powers to promote and advance. Thus, we are at loggerheads.
well it could be your choice of editions....
Storm Raven said:No, he's describing their faith as not being conducive to having members with kewl powerz granted by a figurehead deity.
Do you have to have a cadre of individuals with kewl powerz to have a spiritual bent? Divine spell casters don't have a corner on the concept of spiritual study and enlightenment, they just have a particular method of expressing it.
In D&D terms, their focus would be on things like Knowledge: Philosophy, Knowledge: Religion, and Knowledge: Nature, so in D&D terms, he's pretty much right.
Planescape had generic priests. If I recall correctly, it even specified that a follower of the Athar could not receive healing by a priest that follows a deity, but that at faction headquarters they could find friendly generic clerics. I think that they were mostly assumed to be worshipping an alignment, rather than a generic ideal. However, expanding the concept to let a cleric worship an ideal is very in theme with Planescape.Psion said:Just how is that Planescape?
Psion said:Yes, you're right. For both of the players I mention, they had only played prior editions, and were used to the rulebooks being "the law from on high" as spoken by Gary instead of a toolkit.
It seems like your players can't contribute to your world except by filling the roles that you've laid out and approved. Maybe that works for you, but I've always had success allowing the players some latitude in expanding the game world through their character creation, and that includes religious and societal choices.I do explain the fact that these are the religions,
Zappo said:Planescape had generic priests. If I recall correctly, it even specified that a follower of the Athar could not receive healing by a priest that follows a deity, but that at faction headquarters they could find friendly generic clerics.
Which you have replaced with "the law from on high" as spoken by you, regardless of the enjoyment of the group as a whole?
It seems like your players can't contribute to your world except by filling the roles that you've laid out and approved.
Just to clarify your policy here, if someone wanted to play a non cleric class with an alternate religion (say a small one centered in their home village) would you reject that even as a background choice with no impact on the stats?