Poll: Minotaur or Large Goatfolk? (Please read before voting)

[afluty]

Ok, so I'm looking at some character options and have come across pretty hard choice. What I have seen is that the Minotaur (mm1 pg188) and Goatfolk (raised to enough HD to increase size to large, mm3 pg63) are near identical as far as monsters go, and would like to see which one others would choose.
They both get darkvision 60ft, proficiency with simple weapons and greataxe (coincidence?), large size, 30ft movement, a natural attack of d8 (after size increase for goatfolk), favored class barbarian, an ECL of 8, and are both monstrous humanoids.

The main difference between them is the HD/LA:
Goatfolk get 7HD and 1LA
Minotaur is 6HD and 2LA
This gives the Goatfolk another hp roll, base attack, skills, saves, and another level toward feats, but the additional LA gives the Minotaur special goodies (as I will get to later).

Next is Stats:
Goatfolk: +4 str, +2 con, -2 int, and -2 wis. However, after the size adjustment it becomes: +12 str, -2 dex, +6 con, -2 int, and -2 wis.
Minotaur: +8 str, +4 con, -4 int, -2 cha.
This means the Goatfolk gets another +2 to atks and +x dmg (in addition to the additional base attack to atk) if using melee weapons (of course). And another hp per HD. He is smarter (an additional skill point). But is also less dexterous (potentially less AC if not in big armor).

Natural armor:
Goatfolk gets +2, and another +2 for the size adjustment.
Minotaur gets +5.
The minotaur now has a +2 to AC over the goatfolk for better dex and nat armor.

Class Skills:
Goatfolk: Intimidate (+4 racial), Listen, Spot, and Survival.
Minotaur: Intimidate, Jump, Listen (+4), Search (+4), Spot (+4).
You can see the racial benefits, but again, the Goatfolk gets an additional skill point every level for better int, and another HD of skill points.

Goodies:
Goatfolk: Pack fervor:+2 to atk and dmg and +4 to saves vs fear if within 30ft of another goatfolk (there is one in the party already). This is in addition to the +3 to atk for str and BA (a +5 over the minotaur overall to atk, and 2+x to dmg)
Minotaur: Powerful Charge (4d6+1.5str), natural cunning (never flat-footed, can track), and scent (I love this ability).

Languages are slightly different, but irrelevant.

Which would you choose? I'm leaning toward Goatfolk really, just for the combat uses. Also, I intend to make the character a half-dragon, so that means the Goatfolk would have 38 str if I could muster an 18 out of the dice! Pretty good for ECL 11.

 

[kitcik]

I voted minotaur

I agree the goatfolk is better from an optimization perspective, but I just don't want to be a goat. A minotaur is much cooler. I mean, why not be an anthropomorphic baleen whale? +8 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Wis, +9 natural armor, only 3HD and no LA. Of course, you're a frickin' whale-man riding a wave of cheese...

 

[frankthedm]

Goatfolk LA is for the medium one statted out in MM3. The LA would have to be fully recalculated based on the adjustments being large gets for a large Goatfolk. As [MENTION=52073]Eldritch_Lord[/MENTION] said already...

... if you try that as a player your DM will likely bludgeon you over the head with the DMG, and if you do that to your players as a DM you should bludgeon yourself over the head with the DMG.

 

[afluty]

Goatfolk LA is for the medium one statted out in MM3. The LA would have to be fully recalculated based on the adjustments being large gets for a large Goatfolk.

Very true, this is something I hadn't considered (in spite of looking for something like this). These stats are unlikely to show up RAW, which is dissapointing, but could also be seen as in my favor since nothing says that PCs cant do this, or that recalculation must be done (I would love to see it if someone could find something that does). Also, I do have my post as evidence in my favor that there really shouldn't be any more level adjustment, based on how similiar these creatures are.

Edit: On the Improving Monsters page under Adding Hit Dice, it does say to raise the CR by one if the size increase to large or larger. Considering that those 4 HD needed to raise the size could have been put in a class, with class abilities, the trade seems more in favor of the "4 levels of class abilities" than "+1 cr for increased size".

 

[anest1s]

Minotaur, because of natural cunning. Sure, it may not look impressive...but being flat footed sucks :/

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

If I was your DM, and you chose Goatfolk, I'd just wait for the chance to drop a Maze spell on you, just so you'd feel like you made the wrong choice. And I'd be a jerk for doing so.

Honestly, I see how both are close. Minotaur has a more classic monster coolness feel, and so my suggestion is mostly subjective preference than anything else.

However, for RPing purposes, if there is another goatfolk in your party, and you'd both get along better and have more fun being of the same race and develop a comradeship that would better improve your playing experience, then go with Goatfolk.

 

[kitcik]

The Goatfolk has more HP (extra HD and higher Con), really only 1 less AC assuming armor is worn, and +5 / +5 in the pack?

That's not baaaaaaaaaad...

In fact, I am thinking Maze as the DM as well.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

I'm a little dsappointed this poll isn't about BBQ. That said, I voted Goatfolk-- mainly because of the cheese. Goat cheese is great!

More seriously, it sort of depends what you intend to do with it. Are you asking solely because you're building a PC, or because you're inserting a race into a setting, or something else? As a race, goatfolk just seem a little more interesting to me, not to mention the mechanical advantages. The minotaur is a bit more mythic... and has that "can't get lost" thing others have mentioned, as well as the "never flat-footed" thing. Both can be ridiculously useful in the right setting.

 

[frankthedm]

Also, ECL almost* never helps a character. Sometimes it seems like it is just there to make sure the Fellowship of the Ring races are not outshined by the oddball races.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/266239-racial-level-adjustments-think-works.html

* Here is why I said almost...

 

[nijineko]

do note that if you take the goat choice at the level given, you will have to take class levels to buy off the la, not hd levels. once you have done so, however, you can then take the hd levels without any further la. the la for the larger form (which has to be calc'ed iirc?) is only for starting out that way, not for advancing by taking hd for your xp. now, monster hd tend to be pretty crappy compared to class level choices, but it will eventually get you to large. or you could just remain medium and take class levels and get called tiny or something. ^^ just some scattered thoughts.