(POLL) Rules Light vs. Rules Heavy systems

Rules Light or Rules Heavy?

  • Rules Light

    Votes: 41 62.1%
  • Rules Heavy

    Votes: 25 37.9%

Defintely Rules light...

I personally don't feel that 3E is rules-light...it's mechanics light...but there are a lot of underlying rules.. D20 CoC is getting sorta-kinda close to rules-light.

Games like Herowars, D6 Star Wars, OD&D (B/X), & CoC (BRP version)are more along what I think of as rules light
 
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not to be difficult, but....rules medium.

this is what i think the ideal must be, the broadest "coverage" with the fewest rules.

i think many mis the parallels between game design and what programmers are doing (get ready for newsmagazine depth computer expertise, no waders required, it is all shallow end) with AI. there are an astounding amounts of "what if?"'s for a group just walking down a corridor to nowhere.

i think 3e does an excellent job. i haven't had the broadest of experiences with various systems, but 3e seems to do MOST of what characters wanna do very well.

i think anything that handled EVERYTHING well would be so thick and cumbersome it would void all fun. no matter how far designers go it will always be a system for expressing a reality and all systems are flawed.

the balance is where the fun comes, rules medium rocks.
 

It really depends on the genre...thats why I can quite happily say that whilst I love detail oriented systems like Rolemaster and Spacemaster, with Supers games I really prefer rules light games (a rules heavy game for this genre would really rub me the wrong way...its one of the reasons I've never tried Hero).
 
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It does depend....

I like both Champions and Call of Cthuhlu, I think I generally prefer rules light. Or certainly maths-light.

3E is in the middle ground, although it gets heavier with every suppliment if your not careful.
 

i said heavy, but what i mean is that i don't like freestyling mechanical decsions. i like to have a reason to do something... which is why i wanted rules for possesion and sacrifice. now i have them and i'm happy!!!
 

The issue is not really one of rules light vs rules heavy. I think we can all agree that we like rules to be simple vs complicated. You can often get through 99% of a D&D session without coming up against things that seem awkward.

Rules get complicated when you try to do one of two things. You are either trying to get more detailed, or your dealing with a "Special Case".

A good example of rules becoming complicated in an effort to gain more detail is the Harn combat mechanic. Before I attempt to get into it, keep in mind I played this system exactly once ad a recent D&D convention. The system is based on the following.

1) Players make d100 rolls vs thier skills.
2) You then find out whether the attacker succeeded or failed, and wether the defender succeeded.
3) Determine if the roll is a critical success or critical failure. Any roll that ends in 5 or 0 is a critical something.
4) Consult a table, which tells you if you what happens for each success / failure combination.
5) You can then determine if you hit or were blocked, and roll a d100 to get your hit location
6) You then roll damage , and see how much was absorbed by armor.
7) Finally, if a wound has been inflicted, you then note the severity of the wound (determined by the amount of damage).

The above is a simplified run down. You also have to take into account if the defender is blocking, ignoring you / unaware, or counter striking. You can choose to aim high or low. You can go for called shots. This is a very cumbersome procedure. However, the detail you get out of it is quite remarkable.

Now lets see how we do this in D&D:

1) You roll 1d20 to attack an opponent, and add your attack bonus.
2) You compare the result against the defenders AC. If you rolled higher then the AC, you then hit your opponent.
3) Determine if the hit was a critical.
4) Roll damage.

Attacking in D&D is only complicated when you try to figure out all of the relevant modifiers to a roll, but you often only need to do this once.

Now, where D&D does poorly is in special instances. I will list them here.

1) Figuring out the result of a Jump attempt.
2) Attacks of Opportunity can cause problems since the causes are not always clear.
3) Having skills use abilities that dont make sense all the time (Intimidate based on Cha vs Str makes it useless for Barbarian types).
4) Polymorph other being a 4th level spell capable of creating "Save or Die" situations (I polymorph the dragon into a gold fish).
5) No Saving Throw for Harm making it more powerful then some spells of a higher level.
6) The Rangers favored enemy progression means that you will either take a +5 bonus at 20th level againts creatures you do not fight any more (Orcs) or a +1 bonus at 1st level against a creature that can wipe out the part in one round (Giants and Dragons).

Some of the above are the results of poor design choices. Others are the results of choosing a mechanic to cover a situation that is either difficult or does not always make sense. If you took out or replaced the special cases in D&D, you would find that the system is not very complicated.

END COMMUNICATION
 

It's my opinion that rules-lite games are great for quick bursts of bright, lemon-scented fun, such as one-shots and con games you can just jump into.

Rules-heavy games (which I consider D&D a part of) are best, IMO, for long-term campaigns.

I tend to REALLY like rules-lite, because there's more imagination to it (see my views in Olive's thread about unimaginative players for more), but I can't say I think D&D would be as good as a rules-lite system... so I can't choose. Didn't vote.
 
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I find it interesting that "Rules Light" is leading by a significant margin on a 3e board! Want light rules? Try Lejendary Adventures, a gem of a system with a ton of flexibility, both for the player and the LM (Lejend Master). :cool:
 
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if "0" is extreme rules-light and "10" is extreme rules-heavy, my preference is around 5 to 7... :)

i seem to have an extreme aversion to very rules-light systems such as FUDGE or Feng Shui, but i don't really care for very rules-heavy systems like Rolemaster or full-on GURPS (when you use all the optional rules) either. but i like the HERO System. go figure.

3e and d20 is about where i like it, and is currently my system of choice.

Lord Zardoz, you think that combat system is complicated? ever see the three-page flowchart for "how to make an attack" in GURPS Compendium II? :p
 

Errrggghhh...

I consider D&D 3e to be rules-medium, as I also consider AD&D to be. I don't like games like Rolemaster so much, where just making an attack turns out to be a mathematical chore + lots of table look ups...

So, Rules Light, but with the proviso that 3E is considered Light compared to a lot of other games I know.

Cheers!
 

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