POLL - What is the general alignment of elves?

[Edena_of_Neith]

I'm ok. Thanks for asking, Forsaken One.
I hope you are well!

If alignment is so well defined, why have people argued about what alignment means for 25 years (they have, too, from the now yellowed pages of old Dragon Magazine to the current Internet Message Boards.) ?

I have to give some definition of what alignment means, if the poll is to mean anything at all.

And yes, the elves of Athas are not like the elves of, say, Oerth.

What I sought was a composite view: that is, the view you might get if you looked at the elves through very blurred lens, in which all the different colors and images (the diversity of all the elves) smeared out of focus to form a composite blot.

I will use the same definitions for dwarves, when I post that poll.
I must use the exact same definitions, or no comparison can be made (you cannot compare the weight of apples with two weight scales, both of them set wrong - unless they are set EQUALLY wrong.)

As for my composite view, I see a composite of Lawful Neutral.
It makes me sick to my stomach, too.
Elves SHOULD BE chaotic good (that WAS the definition of their alignment in the Monster Manual), but instead they are Lawful Neutral.
LOL.

 

[Rashak Mani]

Lawfully Gay ?

All pansies ... Why they are considered chaotic good beats me... they all respect tradition, nature and natural cycles, position and elders. I would say Neutral.

Neutral Good then. But chaotic never.

I hate the way elves are made to be uber cool. Why do elves use Longbows and detect secret doors better if they are "forest dwellers"... ? Silly thing like these.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I am baffled as to why Chaotic Good is getting the majority response on this poll, and wish to say so.

The Silvanesti are sneering elistists of the worst kind.
The Qualinesti aren't much better.

The nation of Celene refused to help in the Greyhawk Wars.
The Lendore elves killed EVERYONE ELSE off the islands, so they could lord it over them by themselves.

Toril's elves sneer at humans, consider half-elves abominations, and for a non-elf to travel to Evermeet is death - unless they are granted special permission to go, and even then they are viewed with suspicion and condescension.
Evereska does not permit non-elves into their country.

In Zakhara, the elves are tolerant, social people, but then - in Zakhara, the KOBOLDS are tolerant, social people who interact regularly with others in society.

In Kara-Tur, the elves (spirit folk) are as honorable and law-bound as everyone else.

In Spelljammer, the Elven Imperial Navy lords it over everyone else.

On Athas, the elves are conniving, murderous cutthroats.

In the Birthright Setting, the elves consider all the human race a bunch of invaders, and attack and kill them where possible.

THIS is chaotic good?????

- - -

Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and this is a poll.
I am simply surprised that so many think of the elves as good guys, when they are portrayed in general as elitist, unfriendly people.

 

[Deedlit]

In DnD settings, they are Chaotic Good, but in other settings they are neutral good with chaotic tendencies.

 

[Fast Learner]

IMC Elves are chaotic good. When I thought about what they meant, I decided that they have no defined community, no large scale organization. They tend to be loners or live in very small communities. It's actually kind of cool to have beings that live for hundreds of years and tend to be solo.

 

[WizarDru]

I am baffled as to why Chaotic Good is getting the majority response on this poll, and wish to say so.

Which brings us back to your question being too broad, and your expectations of alignment. The idea that chaotic == antisocial doesn't help.

The nation of Celene refused to help in the Greyhawk Wars.
The Lendore elves killed EVERYONE ELSE off the islands, so they could lord it over them by themselves.

What does Celene's stance during the Greyhawk Wars have to do with anything? It was the decision of the queen, acting in the best interests of her people, in her view. Depending on your intepetation, that could be a Lawful Good act, Lawful Neutral, Neutral Good, and so on. Her goal was not to endanger her people, as opposed to stopping the greater threats to the Flanaess.

As for the elves of the Lendore Isles, I think the word you meant to use was 'kicked', not killed. There was no great slaughter, just forced exiles. Without knowing their motivation, we're again stuck with he same problem. Could be Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil or something else.

As for Elves being elitist, unfriendly people....well, that applies to Humans, Elves, Dwarves and often even gnomes, equally. Check the Theocracy of the Pale, in Greyhawk, for example.

You're entitled to your opinion, I'm just trying to show you that the poll, as it stands, isn't really answering anything.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

This poll, by itself, is of limited use.

However, once I (in several days) conduct the same poll, using the exact same parameters, using dwarves, then this poll becomes a basis for comparison.

It is interesting, to compare what people think, about concepts in Dungeons and Dragons.
At least, it is interesting to me.

As for the elves being elitist and unfriendly - read Dragonlance, or read Elfshadow, or read any number of books on the subject (even Tolkien's wood elves make my case.)
I think many authors and designers have made my case on this matter.
And if they have not, Forrester HAS.

However, each to their own opinion. Everyone is entitled their opinion.

Personally, I liked Tolkien's Noldor as portrayed in his classic The Hobbit the best, concerning elves and how they should be.
That was behavior of a good alignment, in my opinion!

As for the elves of the Lendores, they gave the humans and others living there a choice:
They could leave, or they could leave.

If they choose to leave, they were exiles, homeless and starving.
If they choose to ... leave ..., they were dead because the elves had killed them.
Not my idea of an act that shows a high regard for the value of life.

 

[WizarDru]

This poll, by itself, is of limited use.

However, once I (in several days) conduct the same poll, using the exact same parameters, using dwarves, then this poll becomes a basis for comparison.

It is interesting, to compare what people think, about concepts in Dungeons and Dragons.
At least, it is interesting to me.

I'm not questioning it's interest value...just pointing out that your results would be better if the poll was better formulated.

Personally, I liked Tolkien's Noldor as portrayed in his classic The Hobbit the best, concerning elves and how they should be.
That was behavior of a good alignment, in my opinion!

Regarding Tolkein's elves...let's be clear: they weren't elitist...they simply were better. First chosen of the Gods, immortal, possessed of advanced powers that the other races could never possess, and the list goes on. Despite all that, they were still very welcoming and generally friendly. In general, the elves were friends to everyone at the start, and then one by one, the various races in Tolkein's world did something to tick them off, and earn their dislike, if not actual enmity. Dwarves were once welcome in Lothlorien, although by the time of 'Fellowship', they had long since worn out their welcome.

As for the elves of the Lendores, they gave the humans and others living there a choice:
They could leave, or they could leave.

If they choose to leave, they were exiles, homeless and starving.
If they choose to ... leave ..., they were dead because the elves had killed them.
Not my idea of an act that shows a high regard for the value of life.

I'm assuming the second line was meant to read 'If they chose NOT to leave'. Based on what I've read, they would have forcibly ejected them, not killed them. In fact, from the LGG, page 69: it was a bloodless revolution, yet catastrophic for the inhabitants of Lendore Isle. It goes on to say the mostly non-violent means that were used (mainly illusions and the threat of imprisonment...not death), and that everyone had three days to vacate, and were relocated to the Sea Barons', if they hadn't already escaped using the Gate of Glass. All of which was done in the service of Sehanine Moonbow, in the process of repossessing the islands from the descendants of the wizard Lendore, who the Elves had lent it to after the Invoked Devastation....and who hadn't been given leave to let all those folks live there in the first place.

So, In short, the actions could easily be seen as Chaotic Good. Their diety requires them to turn the islands into a sacred place for the Elves, possibly as it was always meant to be. Faced with the necessity of removing non-elves and unbelievers from the area and defying the already established local government, the Elves use non-violent means to follow the dictates of their gods. All of this done under the auspices of CG 20th level elven cleric.

Celene follows suit, generally, by instigating the Hateful Wars with the help of her neighbors, and ignoring treaties when it's in the nations best interest to do so. They normally come to the aid of their allies, with the exception of the Greyhawk Wars, where the queen institutes an isolationist policy. This policy doesn't sit well with many, leading to many elves going to fight battles without the approval of the queen. All of this is consistent with a Chaotic Good society, IMHO.

 

[Tsyr]

As for the elves being elitist and unfriendly - read Dragonlance

To be clear, there are five distinct races of elf in Dragonlance. Roughly equated to "dnd standard" elves, you have:

High Elf (Qualinesti)
Grey Elf (Silvanesti)
Wild Elf (Kagonesti)
and two different races of sea elf, who's name escapes me.

Qualinesti aren't unfriendly, on the whole. They are isolationistic, but they don't really hate the other races. In fact, this really goes for most the elven races in DL... they mostly just want to be left alone. This isn't the same as unfriendly; guests were always treated well enough... hell, look at how they treated the Knights that occupied their territory during the War of Souls... some of the knights got so attached to the race that they were willing to die to defend them, not just because it was their job. Granted, they still tried to drive them out, but while they were there, most of them treated them well enough.

The Kagonesti take it further, to the point of rabid xenophobia, but again, they don't hate other races... they just don't wanna interact with them.

The Silvanesti are, of all of the races, the most "unfriendly"... frex, during the War of Souls and some time before, they had erected a magical barrier to keep others out.

As for Eliteist...

Lets be honest... in a very practical sense, elves _ARE_ superior to humans. More agile, quite often portrayed as stronger, almost NEVER portrayed as "frail" despite the DnD stats for them, wise, handsome... long lived, almost always natural magic users... I don't think its elitism so much as they ARE better, and they don't really feel the need for false humility.

 

[Wolvorine]

The Facts:

1. Elves are mammals.
2. Elves sing and dance ALL the time.
3. The purpose of the elf is to flip out and sing.

THOSE are the FACTS.

Wow man, you have some dorky elves, not like my elves at all.

I disagree with the alignment definitions, but I think of elves as Chaotic-Good.