[Poly] What's happening to Polyhedron/Dungeon?

[Mapmaker]

Mapmaker: I don't mean to derail this thread, but I've a quick question for ya.

For your three YT-1300 deckplans (that includes the Falcon), what sources did you use? I ask because there has been a lot of controversy over that ship's deck plans over the years.

Thanks Mr. West!

I took a LOT of different sources into account, actually. One of main the reasons I had for doing the feature was to try to reconcile the various conflicting references and theories that have accumulated over the years...everything from the layout of the deck to the number and location of escape pods. I wanted to build a comprehensive map that was as authentic and "official" as possible.

Here's a list of some of the sources I referred to during the making of the map, listed roughly in order of priority given to each:

The films themselves
The "Incredible Cross Sections" book
Elements of the "Behind the Magic" CD-ROM
Older maps from WEG products
Model kits and merchandise
Some assorted bits of fan art

Even with the exhausive amount of research, I fully expected Lucasfilm to want changes...or to turn down the project entirely. Imagine my joy when they approved it on the first pass! Then I wrote the article to go with it, and mapped out the "stock" YT-1300s, and that was approved just as smoothly! I'm still amazed at that, since I provided quite a few new tidbits about Falcon's early history.

Anyway, I hope people enjoy the article and get plenty of game use out of it, and I look forward to learning what the Star Wars faithful think of it.

Thanks for asking!

 

[Vocenoctum]

It's funny to see Ranger change his stance when the tide is changing.

I understand exactly why you want to fight hard, Ranger. Because without a voice, it's easy to see something you love start to fall apart. That's exactly what people on the Dungeon side of things have been saying for so long as well, although perhaps not so directly.

I'll throw something in here. The thing is, there was a Poly magazine and a Dungeon magazine. When content on both sides was being reduced, Dungeon Only folks were screaming about getting ripped off, but Poly Only people were saying "I like Poly" and such.

Now, it's not an even split. The Dungeon only folks have got the advantage in page count now. So some of the Poly folks are complaining.
Meanwhile, the Dungeon Only folks are still saying Dungeon Only.

So, while I don't agree with REG, I can see the point. If Dungeon DID completely drop Poly, and then went out of print as a Dungeon Only publication, maybe that would get the point across. Neither of the magazine's could survive on their own.

I think the real problem is that Wizards made such a large point that they were adding Poly to Dungeon. In reality they were merging two magazines as one. The fact that it was billed as Dungeon primarily, and the Poly subscribers were "given Dungeon" subscriptions made the perception deeper.

So, that said, I like both. I'd like to see both. I'd like to see the front cover alternate between Dungeon style and Polyhedron style, with the other cover inside, but don't know if that's work.

Percentage of content could be determined by survey's to show what percentage of the audience wants X, but I'm of the mind that (as EM said) it should be dictated by the content available.

 

[BryonD]

I'll throw something in here. The thing is, there was a Poly magazine and a Dungeon magazine. When content on both sides was being reduced, Dungeon Only folks were screaming about getting ripped off, but Poly Only people were saying "I like Poly" and such.

Perhaps I need a history lesson here.

How did one get Polyhedron prior to its addition to Dungeon?

I know you could get it through RPGA. Could you buy it at a FLGS?

I was never aware of it as a "real" magazine. Maybe I was just oblivious. But I thought it was a niche support publication.

For example, I can recall getting subscribe to Dungeon blow-ins in Dragon (and vice versa). I do not recall ever getting a Subcribe to Poly blow-in in either. Have I just forgotten? (It is certainly possible, I wasn;t interested in Poly then either). I DO recall seeing "Join the RPGA" fliers that included Polyhedron as one of the perks.

So I never had any perception that the two publications were equals.

Prior to the Paizo spin-off, Poly was added as a small, FREE, BONUS section into Dungeon. So when, just a few months later, this "FREE" bonus became half the magazine, I felt a bit jipped.

So, now, I do not perceive the partial move back to be taking away from Poly's fair representation. Rather, I see it as a move back towards the status it formerly held.

 

[Ranger REG]

It's funny to see Ranger change his stance when the tide is changing.

I understand exactly why you want to fight hard, Ranger. Because without a voice, it's easy to see something you love start to fall apart. That's exactly what people on the Dungeon side of things have been saying for so long as well, although perhaps not so directly.

But there is a difference. You see, you all complained by the intrusion of Poly in the first place, even though only we were given smaller number of pages as opposed to the Dungeon side. While anyone would have called it unfair, I accepted what was given, when I first bought Poly.

I repeat: I, a Poly reader, accepted what was given back in 2002.

When the magazine went into a monthly format in the late Spring/early Summer, it tries to be fair for both camps making it a 60/40 format and alternate every month (Poly gets 60 pages in month, Dungeon get 60 pages in the next month). I accepted it, yet you Dungeon readers continue to complain.

So, I've concluded that you all conspired to remove Poly, damned our feelings and support for that magazine. So what does that leave us Poly readers? Frankly, you don't care. So why should I care now about your past feeling, after what I have stated above?

BTW, thanks for understanding my message, Vocenoctum. I know you don't agree with it (and for that, I respect, admire, and envy your stance), and I hope someday I will come around and see things in a positive light as I did back in 2002. But in all honesty, I don't know how this can be a good thing for us Poly readers. The only thing I can try to do is keep an open mind. We already lost Campaign magazine, which was an independent d20 gaming magazine, but now Fast Forward decided that the new format is to support their games and products. As for Gaming Frontier, despite the deals for subscribers, I can never bring myself to buy a $20 magazine issue.

Sighs. Erik, there is but two words I want to say to you that I have repeatedly said to Rick Berman & Brannon Braga when they try to make good Star Trek TVs and movies...

Impress me. (And I mean on the Poly side only.)

 

[Ranger REG]

Prior to the Paizo spin-off, Poly was added as a small, FREE, BONUS section into Dungeon. So when, just a few months later, this "FREE" bonus became half the magazine, I felt a bit jipped.

So, now, I do not perceive the partial move back to be taking away from Poly's fair representation. Rather, I see it as a move back towards the status it formerly held.

With all due respect, that "free bonus section" you keep calling it is the very reason why I started buying Dungeon again in the first place, not because of Dungeon material. Time and time again, many Dungeon readers complained they don't want it, while I and many others do.

To be correct, they did put out two advertisements in 2002:

1. Subscribe Dungeon and get Poly free.
2. Subscribe Poly and get Dungeon free.

So for us Poly readers, we believe the second advertisement.

 

[BryonD]

OK.

And before then..... ??

Poly was still added to Dungeon.

If you started buying Dungeon for the Free Bonus section, then I can't see why you are so unhappy. You are still getting a lot more than you were at that point.

 

[Morgenstern]

I think it's just one of those things we'll have to see play out... I suspect there are more potential Dungeon customers who might be attracted by greater content thant there are Poly readers who will withdraw their support. Saddly with a 4-times-a-year mini-game schedule, trying to order the magazine's going to be a pain for retailers (since I do expect sales are going to fluctuate noticably under this new structure). What really makes me wonder is -are- the sales of both sides so crucial? If there are 70% Dungeon readers and 30% Poly readers (gross exageration - I realize there are people who eagerly look forward to both sides of the book) that does NOT mean you can split the book 70/30 and expect the 30% to stick around... So can Dungeon get along without the Poly readers if all the Dungeon readers come back? Don't know. Not a bet I'd want to take though, if things are as grim as people describe.

As a reader strictly interested in Poly, I still wonder if there couldn't be a split between the magazines, with Poly having a much more infrequent publishing cycle.

Mr. Mona, can you give us an example of what you envision an issue without a mini-game including in the Poly section? I'm trying to get a feel for what I'd be buying...

 

[Kwyn]

I think it's just one of those things we'll have to see play out... I suspect there are more potential Dungeon customers who might be attracted by greater content thant there are Poly readers who will withdraw their support

Exactly.

The Poly fans are no doubt a vocal minority in this. I talked with the owner of my flgs last night and he told me that in the last 2 years he has gone from ordering 10 of each issue to 2! He said that on the off chance that a customer asks/talks about the magazine, for the most part he hears complaints about the Poly and the lack of more Dungeon adventure content. :/

 

[Kesh]

I originally subscribed to Dungeon on a whim, after picking up an issue in a store. At the time, Poly wasn't very useful to me, since it was still the RPGA issue, and I had no way to play in that outside of conventions.

When Poly changed focus to a d20 magzine and joined Dungeon, I was much happier. This had things I could really use and enjoy reading a lot more.

So, how do I feel about the current situation? I'm fine with it. Sure, it'll mean less Poly content overall, but we'll still get minigames (with more support now!), and various bits-n-pieces to use in other games. For instance, the Starships articles are perfect, since I want to run a Dragonstar game. And the Modern Maps are just as useful for that or for d20 Modern, or Cthulu, or even Shadowrun or White Wolf games.

It doesn't have to be an either/or Poly vs. Dungeon thing. To quote the current US political climate, we need more bipartisanship!

Keep up the good work, Erik. As soon as I get paid, I'm renewing my subscription.

 

[Vocenoctum]

OK.

And before then..... ??

Poly was still added to Dungeon.

If you started buying Dungeon for the Free Bonus section, then I can't see why you are so unhappy. You are still getting a lot more than you were at that point.

But, how is he getting a lot more?
If you got Dungeon/Ploy for the Poly, and there's Less Poly, you're not getting more.

As I said above, I remember the cost break down's and such that the dungeon readers were doing when the monthly issues started. The Dungeon readers screamed that they were being cheated, because they were losing everything, no matter what the inherent value of the current situation was. It was Less than they wanted and had to die! How many Dungeon Only fella's decried the split magazine and called for No Poly?

But, when REG says "fine, see how your magazine goes when there's no Poly" it's Harsh?

Simple fact, EM can't make both sides happy, if he aims at the screamers to either end of the spectrum. Somewhere in the middle is a great magazine and I think (and hope) he'll find the right balance.

I am also one of those that finds my entertainment value as a judge of what I read. That to me makes both sides of the magazine "useful". I've only used one dungeon probably, and none of the short games. (though I keep meaning to get the HiJinks issue, which I missed since that was when I subscribed, so I missed it at the newsstand..) If I use a minigame for even one adventure, it's been as useful as an adventure. It also makes a good distraction.

REG> I got Gaming Frontier's because of the free books. I made sure to get more than the $80 I paid, and got enough material to make it worth my while. The actual magazine was so-so, mostly material from other products, or that depended on other products. I'd say most of them should have been web enhancements or previews for other products, so it was a bit of a disappointment. But, it was only one issue, so I'll wait and see.