Polymorph and Vow of Poverty...

[Li Shenron]

Does a polymorphed character keep his Vow of Poverty extraordinary abilities?

Alter Self mentions: "You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels."

The intent of the effect I believe was to loose any racial or physical special abilities, not those gained from some other source. Would you keep all the extraordinary abilities since they are gained due to a feat, and you keep you feats (other than racial)? Anyway, any comments, ideas, etc, would be welcome.

Does Vow of Poverty depend on the character's race, type or physical form? NO
Does polymorph change something else than these? NO

Vow of Poverty is still valid while polymorphed, it is anyway a class feature and not a racial feature.

 

[Nac_Mac_Feegle]

Your mind and soul are commited to the VoP, not just the body, so changing the body shouldnt matter.

Otherwise your going to get a caster like above changing into a dragon, gathering a horde, and saying "Hey im not bound by my Vow of Poverty in this form"

For good or bad, you have taken a Vow to live up to, regardless of your current shape, I would have to say that the benefits of the vow come from you, by living the way you do, and as long as you continue to live the lifestyle you have vowed to live, you benefit from its advantages.

This is more in keeping with the Spirit of the Vow, rather than looking at the hard and fast rules of how your abilites actually work or thier source

Feegle Out

 

[Li Shenron]

This is more in keeping with the Spirit of the Vow, rather than looking at the hard and fast rules of how your abilites actually work or thier source

Yep, after all the BoVD had a warning about "mature gamers only".

 

[cmanos]

trying to cheese out of a VoP this way should negate the vow, and all powers granted thereof. You have taken a vow, boby, mind and soul, and then you start looking for ways to get around it? Vow's don't have loopholes. Even if you can find one by the letter of the rules, the spirit of the rules of the vows are that you don't find a loophole.

If you allow someone to change form, however they may, and get out of the vow, you are opening yourself up to super limburger. What you will have is someone walking around in their changed form with all this stuff. They'll get into a situation where they need the benefit of the vow. Drop their gear, change back to their vowed form and, bam...vow in efect again.

Personally, I am vehemently against this. If a character in my game tried this, I would let them try it, and lo and behold they would find in the alternate form they are not bound by the vow. They don't get the benefits of it, but they are not bound. Astonishingly, when they return to their normal form, they don't have the benefits of the vow, nor the restrictions. They have broken the vow and forever are without the benefits. The character has broken an Exalted vow. Believe that means that you can't take any more vows...ever. And if it isn't stated in the letter of the rules, I as a DM would say, soprry, you broke your exalted vow and the celestials aren't too keen on trusting you right now. Come back in a million years, which is but the blink of an eye to them, and they may give you a second chance.

 

[Drowbane]

trying to cheese out of a VoP this way should negate the vow, and all powers granted thereof. You have taken a vow, boby, mind and soul, and then you start looking for ways to get around it? Vow's don't have loopholes. Even if you can find one by the letter of the rules, the spirit of the rules of the vows are that you don't find a loophole.

If you allow someone to change form, however they may, and get out of the vow, you are opening yourself up to super limburger. What you will have is someone walking around in their changed form with all this stuff. They'll get into a situation where they need the benefit of the vow. Drop their gear, change back to their vowed form and, bam...vow in efect again.

Personally, I am vehemently against this. If a character in my game tried this, I would let them try it, and lo and behold they would find in the alternate form they are not bound by the vow. They don't get the benefits of it, but they are not bound. Astonishingly, when they return to their normal form, they don't have the benefits of the vow, nor the restrictions. They have broken the vow and forever are without the benefits. The character has broken an Exalted vow. Believe that means that you can't take any more vows...ever. And if it isn't stated in the letter of the rules, I as a DM would say, soprry, you broke your exalted vow and the celestials aren't too keen on trusting you right now. Come back in a million years, which is but the blink of an eye to them, and they may give you a second chance.

so an Exalted Druid loses Vow of Pov if he uses his class ability (namely: Wild Shape)?

How about an Exalted Warlock (bear with me people ) who uses a "dark" invocation to shift into a bat-swarm-thing?

I realize that niether of these two abilities cost monies... but neither does the previously mentioned Sorc/Archmage w/Spell-like ability.....

What if the party Wizard cast a polymorph spell on the Vow of Poverty character? Or for that matter a Bull's Strength or Haste? There are prices listed for people casting spells for you... surely that (by your logic) would violate the Vow?

 

[Arravis]

trying to cheese out of a VoP this way should negate the vow, and all powers granted thereof.

Umm... why would you think this was a way around the vow? How is it trying to "cheese" out of it. How is it a loophole, or any such thing? Am I missing something? I just don't see it being abusive in any way. Can you explain your meaning?

 

[Nac_Mac_Feegle]

There appears some confusion

If you do not keep your VoP after shape change, if the DM rules this, then the person shape changing would in theory not be bound by VoP

However, this is all based on rules saying that when you shape change you lose access etc to Supernatural abilities etc.

Problem is, this is taking shapechangng rues out of context in regard to VoP. VoP redefines a lot of rules, and has been stated, requires a mature audience to use it.

VoP is a belief, and wiht that belief, comes power, that belief doesnt change wiht shape change, and niether should the powers, Humna, elf, dragon or bear, its still you inside, and you have taken the Vow.

The source or location of these powers is immaterial, you have been granted the powers through adherence to a belief, and they will follow you through any and all transformations, unless you break the Vow.

If however, you rule they are Supernatural abilites, as defined by the rules, and the abilities are lost in shapechanging, then your players might rightyl feel if theres no benefits, theres no restrictions, and utilise this loophole to hoard gear in a shapechanged form as described above, then ditch it when they need ot revert to thier VoP form

This is why its of paramount importance to understand the "Spirit" of the rules in books like "The Book of Exalted Deeds" or "The Book of Vile Darkness". They arent just rule books, they are flavour books, power books, items to be used wiht caution by gamers mature enough to handle the content.

There are no fart jokes in the either BoED or BoVD

Feegle Out

 

[Arravis]

If you do not keep your VoP after shape change, if the DM rules this, then the person shape changing would in theory not be bound by VoP. However, this is all based on rules saying that when you shape change you lose access etc to Supernatural abilities etc. Problem is, this is taking shapechangng rues out of context in regard to VoP. VoP redefines a lot of rules, and has been stated, requires a mature audience to use it.

I have two issues with this...

1) I see no reason why VoP should break the rules. It uses a clearly defined set of parameters that work within the 3rd edition system. Why should it be an exemption to the rules? You can struggle with the "spirit" of it all day, but it's of little relevance. The rules are clearly defined to avoid exactly this kind of confusion. You and I may define the "spirit" of the Fireball spell differently, but the rules for it are clear beyond either interpretation of it's intent. Otherwise, there's really no point in even making rules for it.

2) In my starting post I made no mention at all of loosing any of the restrictions of Vow of Poverty, how did this even become an issue? I only asked if you loose Extraordinary abilities if polymorphed. I made no mention of using this as a loophole, of the restrictions of the vow going away, etc. A paladin in an anti-magic zone looses most of his abilities... but he's not unrestricted in his behavior. Why would it be any different with a Vow of Poverty character?

 

[Mistwell]

In my starting post I made no mention at all of loosing any of the restrictions of Vow of Poverty, how did this even become an issue? I only asked if you loose Extraordinary abilities if polymorphed. I made no mention of using this as a loophole, of the restrictions of the vow going away, etc. A paladin in an anti-magic zone looses most of his abilities... but he's not unrestricted in his behavior. Why would it be any different with a Vow of Poverty character?

I agree. Up until the post I just quoted of yours, I was looking at the screen with confusion on my face, wondering why this turned into "It's a trick! Get an Axe!" type discussion about a loophole in VoP. I thought you were just asking "Do the powers still function?" and not "Can I get rich or die trying now?".

I say the powers still function. I'd say that your oath powers are re-granted just after the shapechange as if you just took the vow, since you never broke the vow and still act under the vow. The powers that be continue to deem you worthy...

 

[BalazarIago]

For me, it would be based on intent. I would allow the benifits to carry over, so long as the character adheres to the spirit, as well as the letter of the Vow.

If they use the powers to break the vow, then they lose it.

If using the power of shapechanges, negates the benifits of VoP, then so be it, but if the character continues to adhere to the restrictions of VoP without any benifit, then when they return to their original form, then I have no problem with the benifits of VoP returning to the character in his orginal form.