Polymorph and Vow of Poverty...

[Arravis]

I have no problem with the benifits of VoP returning to the character in his orginal form.

The question at hand IS what powers does he or she maintain while polymorphed/shapechanged, not if the vow is maintained or loopholed.

I'm sensing a strong agenda on what people feel this thread should be about... and it has little to do with what it actually is.

 

[Mistwell]

I'm sensing a strong agenda on what people feel this thread should be about... and it has little to do with what it actually is.

I think people get used to powergaming issues in here, that they expect that a post about Vow of Poverty and something unusual must be about a loophole.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Interestingly, the recent FAQ additions regarding Polymorph do leave a Vow loophole.

If a human takes, say, Vow of Nonviolence as his racial bonus feat, and then uses Polymorph to turn into an elf... according to the FAQ, he no longer possesses that feat while he is non-human. He can, therefore, disintegrate whoever he wants.

If he also has Vow of Peace, however, it's trickier. He still has the Vow of Peace feat (since it is not a racial bonus feat), and is constrained by its restrictions. However, since he is missing a prerequisite feat (namely, Vow of Nonviolence), he cannot use the Vow of Peace feat. He is required to keep the vow to avoid losing the benefits of the Vow of Peace feat permanently, even though he gains no benefits from it while in non-human form.

If he does disintegrate someone, he has broken his Vow of Peace, and loses the benefits permanently; once he returns to human form, however, his Vow of Nonviolence feat returns, and he resumes the benefits of that feat.

This is a minor problem, though, compared to the human who takes, say, Dodge as his human bonus feat, and finds that he loses access to Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Elusive Target, and all special abilities and features of his Prestige Class as soon as he changes form...

-Hyp.

 

[cmanos]

so an Exalted Druid loses Vow of Pov if he uses his class ability (namely: Wild Shape)?

Um, if you had read my post fully, yuou would see I am against the idea of someone losing the vow when changing shape. How that shape change occurs is immaterial. If the character changes shape, the vow still stays in effect, with all benefits and drawbacks.

Umm... why would you think this was a way around the vow? How is it trying to "cheese" out of it. How is it a loophole, or any such thing? Am I missing something? I just don't see it being abusive in any way. Can you explain your meaning?

OK, allowing someone to change shape and lose the restrictions and bonuses of the vow while in their changed shape is begging to have someone assume a different shape than when they took their vow so they can wear armor, wield weapons and whatnot, until it comes to a point when they need the benefits of the vow. At which point, they drop the equipment and change shape. A vow is a vow is a vow in no matter what form you take. You don't see it as abusive to take an exalted vow of poverty and then change form and not be restricted by the vow? I do. I see it as abusive and trying to weasel your way out of a pact you have made with the celestials. You have taken a vow to forswear all wealth. That vow will transcend whatever form you are in. The powers you have sworn the vow to aren't going to let you out of it just because you look different. You are still the same soul and mind.

This is why its of paramount importance to understand the "Spirit" of the rules in books like "The Book of Exalted Deeds" or "The Book of Vile Darkness". They arent just rule books, they are flavour books, power books, items to be used wiht caution by gamers mature enough to handle the content.

Thank, you, Feagle

2) In my starting post I made no mention at all of loosing any of the restrictions of Vow of Poverty, how did this even become an issue? I only asked if you loose Extraordinary abilities if polymorphed. I made no mention of using this as a loophole, of the restrictions of the vow going away, etc. A paladin in an anti-magic zone looses most of his abilities... but he's not unrestricted in his behavior. Why would it be any different with a Vow of Poverty character?

I am not accusing you personally of anything. I am staing if you allow someone to not be bound by the Vow in a different form than they took the vow, you are asking for someone to abuse the situation. I think we all know people who would look for a loophole in the situation so they could horde stuff for some situations, and then drop the stuff and change to their Vowed state to reap the benefits of the vow.

Perhaps I did not word things as clearly as I should have. A lot of times I see things like this as "How can I get out of the restrictions while still reaping the benefits?"

I am not going to look up all the relevant rules. For one thing I don't have all the relevant books to look up. If the benefits and restrictions of the vow do not apply when you shapechange, and the character still acts under the restricions, the vow would stay in effect. If on the other hand, the character looks at the shapechange as a way to gain wealth, while still retaining the benefits in a different form, then the vow has been broken.

On the question of do the benefits of the vow apply after shapechange. Again, I don't have the relevant books to look things up. I will defer to those who have all the books within arms reach and know the rules better than me.

 

[Arravis]

My original post:

Does a polymorphed character keep his Vow of Poverty extraordinary abilities?
Alter Self mentions: "You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels."
The intent of the effect I believe was to loose any racial or physical special abilities, not those gained from some other source. Would you keep all the extraordinary abilities since they are gained due to a feat, and you keep you feats (other than racial)? Anyway, any comments, ideas, etc, would be welcome.

Now, someone please explain how this has anything to do with the above post:

I am staing if you allow someone to not be bound by the Vow in a different form than they took the vow, you are asking for someone to abuse the situation.

When the heck, even once, did I EVER say you lose the the vow? When did I say, you're no longer restricted by it. WHY was that even brought up? People, please READ the post before you comment on it.

In-friggin-credible.

 

[Infiniti2000]

People, please READ the post before you comment on it.

You said: "Anyway, any comments, ideas, etc, would be welcome." cmanos offered a comment that related to your topic. I thought it was relevant, and his last post cleared up his intent. Since you didn't state your intent or that the vow would remain in place, people will make an assumption, and a valid one at that given the question. Don't berate them for it especially when your invitation for discussion is so open.

 

[Arravis]

Just seems that I have kept repeating that was not the issue, but you have an excellent point.