Polymorph question: kung-fu dino!

[Iku Rex]

I think the most important FAQ rule in this context is: "If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks)."

As far as I can tell, the part about being "normally allowed" to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks is a FAQ invention, but even as it stands it makes for some fancy polymorph twinkism.

A cave troll (MM3) has a humanoid form and would normally be allowed to combine it's natural attacks with weapon attacks. (For example, by wielding a greatclub and using its bite as a secondary natural attack.) Since monks can strike with any part of their body as part of a flurry, they don't even have to "waste" a claw attack to hold a weapon. As a result you get a "regular" flurry (with +9 Str bonus) on top of all the cave troll's natural attacks (as secondary attacks).

 

[Thanee]

As far as I can tell, the part about being "normally allowed" to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks is a FAQ invention, ...

Manufactured Weapons: Some monsters employ manufactured weapons when they attack. Creatures that use swords, bows, spears, and the like follow the same rules as characters, including those for additional attacks from a high base attack bonus and two-weapon fighting penalties. This category also includes “found items,” such as rocks and logs, that a creature wields in combat— in essence, any weapon that is not intrinsic to the creature.

Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Iku Rex]

[SRD quote]

Yes, I know.To clarify: The "invented" rule is that the form must be "normally" allowed to make attacks with manufactured weapons for the monk to be able to flurry (with unarmed strikes).

IMO there's no by-the-rules reason why a monk polymorphed into a bear (or an awakened bear with monk levels, or a werebear monk) can't flurry. And if he flurries, he can use the bear's natural attacks as secondary attacks at -5.

 

[Thanee]

It refers to the "Some...", I suppose.

So, only creatures, which have a weapon entry and a natural weapon entry can do this.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Iku Rex]

It refers to the "Some...", I suppose.

That's a bit of a stretch, to say the least... :\

So, only creatures, which have a weapon entry and a natural weapon entry can do this.

That's even harsher than the FAQ. The FAQ rule is that if the creature would normally be allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same.

A troll doesn't have a weapon entry, but it would still be allowed to make attacks with a manufactured weapon.

 

[Thanee]

Heh. Well, I don't really know... maybe they just assume it would be clear what monsters normally do so.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Heh. Well, I don't really know... maybe they just assume it would be clear what monsters normally do so.

Bye
Thanee

I think you're reading too much into that. I read it as "IF the creature can, for whatever reason, combine weapon and natural attacks, THEN the creature uses the weapon attack as primary and natural attacks as secondary."

I don't read it as implying which creatures can and cannot use manufactured weapons. It indicates the conditions that a creature must follow when combining natural and manufactured attacks. Actually, I don't see any indication in the FAQ that any creature that could take class levels couldn't take monk levels and do standard monk attacks, regardless of physiology. Which means that any creature that can take class levels can make attacks as though using manufactured weapons by making monk attacks, and take its secondary natural attacks as well.

The only limitation I see to this is the DM. "No, your awakened whale can't perform a flurry of blows, because he doesn't have any limbs." So, megaraptor? Perhaps. I don't see any rules that would indicate otherwise. Certainly there's nothing in the Polymorph rules that would disallow a polymorphed monk getting his standard attacks plus natural attacks at -5 just because his form is somewhat awkward.

I mean, what if he were a giant turtle with a bandana?

 

[Piratecat]

"No, your awakened whale can't perform a flurry of blows, because he doesn't have any limbs."

Flurry of "oh my god this whale is jumping up and down on me and it really huuuuurts!"

Oh, yeah.