Polymorphing in an hydra

[Al'Kelhar]

My 8th level wizard wants to polymorph into an hydra for combat. I have a few questions about this:

1. Can a Medium creature polymorph in a Huge one? The spell description for polymorph states that it works like alter self and that the form assumed cannot be smaller than Fine. Alter self only permits change in size up to one size smaller or larger than the caster's natural size.

2. An hydra is an unusual creature in that its standard attack is multiple attacks, one with each head (this is also its full attack). Does my wizard polymorphed into 8-headed hydra form have a standard attack of 8 bites, and if so:
(a) can he both bite 8 times and undertake a move action in the same round;
(b) can he charge and end the charge with 8 bites; and
(c) does each of his attacks of opportunity (noting that he gets two per round because of the bonus Combat Reflexes feat and a Dex of 12) comprise 8 bites?

Thanks in advance, Al'Kelhar

 

[Al'Kelhar]

Further to my initial questions:

3. The common way to deal with an hydra is by sundering its heads:
(a) Is it possible to sunder the heads of a wizard polymorphed into an hydra? [My assumption is "Yes", even though it is not possible to sunder the head of the wizard in his natural form]
(b) If so, and the wizard-hydra has one one of his heads sundered (chopped off), what effect does this have on the wizard (apart from the obvious reduction in attacks)? [My assumption - none, until the last head is sundered, at which point the wizard dies, decapitated].

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[Hypersmurf]

From Alter Self: "A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal."

So if your BAB as a wizard is +6, you're limited to two attacks, even with 8 heads.

Since the ability to move and attack is not defined as Ex, Su, or Sp, or as a Special Quality, it's presumably a physical quality - so the above wizard could move or charge and attack with two heads.

Likewise the regrowing of heads is not a Special Quality, so it's not prohibited by the Alter Self limitations.

As far as AoOs go, there is much debate as to how hydras and AoOs work.

-Hyp.

 

[Al'Kelhar]

From Alter Self: "A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal."

So therefore I should stick with the old polymorph/wild shape stalwarts of brown bear/polar bear/dire bear, and forget the hydra and girallon...

 

[Nail]

So therefore I should stick with the old polymorph/wild shape stalwarts of brown bear/polar bear/dire bear, and forget the hydra and girallon...

Yup.

Besides, you can't polymorph into a size Hige creature if you start out as size medium.

I wonder, can a druid wildshape into a size large creature, cast animal growth on herself, then was polymoprphed...could it be a Gargantuan sized creature?

 

[Darklone]

Several "enlargements" don't stack.

Any DM who allows this deserves it

 

[jgsugden]

Polymorph has many different interpretations. A lot of people state conflicting opinions as facts. Unfortunately, many of these conflicting opinions have been backed up be conflicting custserv@wizards.com answers.

As a result: For now, if you have any questions about polymorph that are nto clearly answered by the book, the only thing to do is to talk to your DM and ask for a ruling. If you are the DM, you won't get a consistent answer about anything message boards unless it is ultraclear in the PHB.

As for how I'd rule the questions:

1.) Polymorph's size limitations overwrite the alter self limitations. You can adopt any size that is fine or larger. The key limitation is the hit dice limitation. A small creature could be polymorphed into a gangantuan creature if the new form falls within the HD criteria.

2.) Polymorph does not override the alter self restrictions on attacks from extra limbs. This would apply to heads as well, IMHO, even though heads are not limbs.

These restrictions generally limit you to two limb attacks and one bite attack (though extra attacks from horns, a tail, etc ... are also possible). You *are not* limited to a number of attacks indicated by your base attack because you are using the natural weapon rules (like a monster) instead of the manufactured weapon rules (like a PC or orc).

A PC in octopus form could make two tentacles attacks and one bite attack because he normally has two arms and one set of teeth. A PC in hydra form would get 1 natural bite attack because it has one set of teeth in its natural form. An Ettin polymoprhed into a hydra would get two bite attacks.

The basis for this view has been given a limited endorsement by Andy Collins. ("Looks reasonable to me. ")
(http://pub36.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm12.showMessage?topicID=214.topic)

 

[Iku Rex]

1. Can a Medium creature polymorph in a Huge one? The spell description for polymorph states that it works like alter self and that the form assumed cannot be smaller than Fine. Alter self only permits change in size up to one size smaller or larger than the caster's natural size.

Nobody knows. By the letter of the rules, no. Note that "smaller than Fine" is nonsense, as Fine is the smallest size possible.

 

[Hypersmurf]

These restrictions generally limit you to two limb attacks and one bite attack (though extra attacks from horns, a tail, etc ... are also possible). You *are not* limited to a number of attacks indicated by your base attack because you are using the natural weapon rules (like a monster) instead of the manufactured weapon rules (like a PC or orc).

A PC in octopus form could make two tentacles attacks and one bite attack because he normally has two arms and one set of teeth. A PC in hydra form would get 1 natural bite attack because it has one set of teeth in its natural form. An Ettin polymoprhed into a hydra would get two bite attacks.

A human has one set of teeth, but he doesn't have a natural bite attack. So if you're basing things off natural attacks in natural form, gaining a bite attack is gaining an attack.

A human, in fact, has no natural weapons. His unarmed strike does not use the natural weapon rules.

Why can a human polymorphed into a minotaur use the gore attack when he has no horns in his natural form? If a creature with no mouth polymorphs into a hydra, can it make any bite attacks under your rules?

This interpretation doesn't make a lot of sense to me with the explanation you've given so far.

-Hyp.

 

[jgsugden]

A human has one set of teeth, but he doesn't have a natural bite attack. So if you're basing things off natural attacks in natural form, gaining a bite attack is gaining an attack.

A human, in fact, has no natural weapons. His unarmed strike does not use the natural weapon rules.

Why can a human polymorphed into a minotaur use the gore attack when he has no horns in his natural form? If a creature with no mouth polymorphs into a hydra, can it make any bite attacks under your rules?

As I mentioned, if you're looking for 100% consistency, give it up. The rules are inconsistent, contradictory and vague.

The key difference, I think, in your view and the view I presented above, is that the above view focuses on body parts while your view focuses on attacks.

In the above view, a human polymorphed into a wolf can have a single bite attack because he has the capability to bite in his normal form with one set of teeth, even though that bite is not capable of being used as an attack in D&D terms. If he polymorphed into a hydra, he would only be able to use one set of teeth to make a bite attack because he only has one set of teeth in human form, even though those teeth can not be used to make a meaningful bite attack.

The confusing part of this view is in regards to making attacks with body parts that are not part of the natural form of the creature (minotaur's gore attacks, scorpion stings, etc ... for a polymorphed human). The explanantion that I have been given (which certainly work, but is not clear in the books - at all) is that you may not gain additional attacks for extra]/i] limbs of a type you normally possess, but you can gain an extra attack (per relevant body part) for gaining a new type of extremity (like a horn or tail) that can make an attack. I was also told to count humanoids as only having 2 limbs instead of 4 and to count any limb (other than a tail) as being equivalent (ie; an arm is equivalent to a tentacle).

In most cases, this can be simplified down to: When polymorphed into a creature that normally makes natural attacks, you make natural attacks as if you were that creature (using your BAB and special modifications from feats, etc ...), but you may make no more than one bite attack and two limb attacks (unless that form grants extra attacks via an extraordinary attack like pounce), though tail attacks are gained.

After exhaustive searching, that seemes to be the rule with the greatest concensus behind it from designers (when I could pull it out of them), custserv and the board gurus. I've used it for a little while now and it seems to be as balanced as anything else out there (I've had no significant problem with it). It has enough support and works well enough for me to adopt it until WotC gets off their butt and rewrites polymoprh again to deal with all these issues fully.