Polymorphing in an hydra

[Camarath]

2.) Polymorph does not override the alter self restrictions on attacks from extra limbs.

I think that one could reasonably count all Natural Attacks possessed by a form as Extraordinary Special Attacks this would mean that Polymorph section that grants all Extraordinary Special Attacks would override the Alter Self prohibition that gaining extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks.

 

[jgsugden]

I think that one could reasonably count all Natural Attacks possessed by a form as Extraordinary Special Attacks this would mean that Polymorph section that grants all Extraordinary Special Attacks would override the Alter Self prohibition that gaining extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks.

Reason leads in many directions under the vague polymorph rules. Hundreds of conflicting arguments about polymorph could be made, all of which have some support in the rules and nothing that clearly opposes them. I think most people would not come to your conclusion, but beyond the fact that it opposes a vague endorsement of another view by the lead designer of the PHB and it violates what custserv has said, I can't say you're wrong.

 

[Nail]

As I mentioned, if you're looking for 100% consistency, give it up. The rules are inconsistent, contradictory and vague.

Well.....I'd agree they could have been written:

• a) all in one spot, and
• b) after play-testing the 3.5e rules.

Perhaps the most surprising thing about 3.5e is the huge problems with interpreting the alter self/polymorph/wildshape rules.

As for whether or not a size medium creature can be polymorphed into a size huge creature:

I'd say no. The polymorph description says "You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine,...", and that statement does not revoke the Alter Self description: "The new form must be within one size category of your normal size." Since the polymorph spell may be cast on creatures other than the caster, and those other creatures might be size Fine, it stands to reason that the polymorph size clause was put in so you couldn't make creatures into miniscule bacteria, or some such. (shrug)

I mean, come on; this is only a 4th level spell we're talking about here.

 

[Nail]

As an aside: has anyone thought through a re-written polymorph spell list? Something like: Lesser Polymorph, Polymorph, Greater Polymorph? End the sequence with a Shapechange like spell.

 

[jgsugden]

As for whether or not a size medium creature can be polymorphed into a size huge creature:

I'd say no. The polymorph description says "You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine,...", and that statement does not revoke the Alter Self description: "The new form must be within one size category of your normal size." ...

I mean, come on; this is only a 4th level spell we're talking about here.

It is your opinion that the polymorph size restriction doe snot override the alter self size restriction. That is far from clear. I tend to lean the other direction, as a clause saying that you can not turn something into something smaller than fine would only be applicable in situations where you began with a creature of fine size if the alter self 'within 1 size category' rule were applied.

The concern you're worried about (turning unimportant creatures into colossal monsters) is covered by the hit dice cap rule.

As an aside: has anyone thought through a re-written polymorph spell list? Something like: Lesser Polymorph, Polymorph, Greater Polymorph? End the sequence with a Shapechange like spell.

I have toyed around with a different set of polymorph spells, but they are far from being worthy to place in a game. The basics of it would be that instead of having a multipurpose polymorph spell, there would be hundreds of polymoprh spells, each set to a different form. For instance, one spell would be Polymorph: Centaur. Casting it would turn the target into a centaur. Which special abilities, special attacks, natural weapons, etc ... could be used would be hand selected for a given form to keep it in balance for the spell level. That seems to me to be an expansive approach, but it also seems to me to be the only one that leads to a balanced sewt of abilities for the spell. The spell is too broad to be balanced when it allows such a variety of forms to be adopted.

 

[Nail]

It is your opinion that the polymorph size restriction doe snot

I was rolling around on the floor for a while after this one. Heaven knows that I, too, have typos, but the funny ones.....

...override the alter self size restriction. That is far from clear.

It seems clear enough to call, I'd say. It's true there is also the HD cap, but that is an additional restriction, not an over-riding one. In fact, given that what there should be is a "CR cap" (or perhaps an ECL cap) on this silly spell, having a size and a HD restriction on this fourth level spell is reasonable.

I have toyed around with a different set of polymorph spells....(snip).... The basics of it would be that instead of having a multipurpose polymorph spell, there would be hundreds of polymoprh spells, each set to a different form.

Hmm. I'm not sure that necessary. We're in house rule territory here, I know, but I'd be tempted to go with 3 versions:

• Lesser Polymorph (Wiz/Sor 3) Can polymorph into the same type, limits on size and HD
• Polymorph (Wiz/Sor 6) Can polymorph into any type, limited to HD and size.
• Greater Polymorph (Wiz/Sor 9) replaces/renamed shapechange

...or something. Hmmmmmm.

 

[Iku Rex]

Since the polymorph spell may be cast on creatures other than the caster, and those other creatures might be size Fine, it stands to reason that the polymorph size clause was put in so you couldn't make creatures into miniscule bacteria, or some such. (shrug)

There's a "miniscule" size category? Is that new in 3.5? Where can I find this rule?

 

[jgsugden]

It seems clear enough to call, I'd say. It's true there is also the HD cap, but that is an additional restriction, not an over-riding one. In fact, given that what there should be is a "CR cap" (or perhaps an ECL cap) on this silly spell, having a size and a HD restriction on this fourth level spell is reasonable.

Again: I tend to lean the other direction, as a clause saying that you can not turn something into something smaller than fine would only be applicable in situations where you began with a creature of fine size if the alter self 'within 1 size category' rule were applied. It would just be silly to have that rule in polymorph if the alter self rule were meant to carry over to polymorph. There is also no need for a size rule in polymorph - the HD cap takes car of the balance issues.

Oh ... btw: doe snot.

 

[Iku Rex]

It would just be silly to have that rule in polymorph if the alter self rule were meant to carry over to polymorph.

It's a silly rule no matter how you look at it. Like I said, there's no such thing as "a creature smaller than Fine".