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Pondering Perception

delericho said:
- The mechanics allow the party to do a general search, which will often (but not always) get results. But where the dice don't go their way, that's it - the mechanics won't allow them retries, or more detailed searches, or anything else. After that one roll, it's down to player skill.

Yeah, that's probably one of my favorite parts of this: consequences for failure: Don't find it through a role (and have no idea about the clues), you'll never find it.

I think the "solution" to the potential problem of PC's not finding the info you want them to find would be to provide distinct nodes that allow a check...or just to tell them the important stuff, even without a roll. After all, a die roll shouldn't be like pressing a button in a game to advance the text...it should accomplish something, risk failure, and change the outcome.

Yeah, this will work pretty well. :)
 

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I had some thoughts on this on my blog but to sum things up, if something needs to be found to avoid "ruining" the adventure, just don't have a roll for it (or fake a roll behind the screen).


Regarding some of the rest of delericho's post, one of the least fun games I ran was when I stepped in to run a game for some players whose GM had left them in the lurch. The group was used to simply stating (and someone in the group, or several of them did this routinely) he was searching, roling a die, and if he rolled low telling the person with the next best chance to search/roll, and so on until someone rolled high. No tension, no fun, no interest from me in doing that again. I of course allowed it as this was a temporary GMing situation and the one time I included something where I asked the players to be more descriptive about how and what they were searching in a more detailed situation, most of the group either scratched their heads or outright complained about not being able to simply roll away.


Systems that encourage that sort of mentality are not enjoyable for me, neither as a GM nor as a player. I prefer hidden rolls by the GM when there are consequences for failure, and degrees of success that include not finding something but feeling something suspicious when rolling close but failing, and also finding something but missing an important aspect when just barely making the roll (like finding a sword under a matress but maybe the dagger that is also there getting caught in the folds of the bed spread). Binary success/failure rolls done by players where they can always know (or even almost always know) if they are failing or succeeding don't make the grade for my games.
 

I must disagree with the OP. First and foremost about percentages. A 70% chance average discovery rate completely negates any character skill. It's always been my peeve of post 2e skill systems to have moving goalposts. Sort of a "you must be this tall to ride" paradigm. Why not just say 70 percent chance? Instead players select skills and waste time statting up an ability that is handwaived into a specific probability threshhold or custom fitted so that they will always have the same chance.

SOP for dungeoneering came about in a time where PC death was more likely than not. Trying to get tension from modern risk levels needs a lot more DM skill than before. Especially since encounters are more tightly balanced to allow for greater success solely based on mechanics and build instead of in game decision making or built in frailties of class.

IMO passive perception should be to stealth as AC is to the attack roll and just as easy or difficult to improve. Searching should be handled by decision making.
 

One other thought springs to mind.



Adventure Backgrounds tend not to be terribly well used, and could well serve to fix this problem.

Most adventure modules come with a fairly extensive write-up of the adventure background... much of which the players never get to learn, and most DMs never use. It occurs to me that this could be handled better.

Basically, instead of giving the DM a wall of text, the adventure should provide a set of "what you know" lists for various skills. Players should then get the handouts for their character's Trained skills. (There might be handouts for some or all of Arcana, Dungeoneering, History, Nature, Religion, Streetwise, Bardic Knowledge, Artificer Knowledge...)

These would then serve as a major source of the clues for various hidden things in the adventure. And, since the genius Wizard will generally be trained in a lot more of these mental skills than the idiot Barbarian, that player will generally receive a lot more of this information, playing up his character's role as a font of useful knowledge.

(Arguably, this is better done with a roll than with a binary Trained/Untrained check. However, since it's easier to provide fewer handouts...)

I must spread XP around before giving you any more, but the OP and this post are both full of goodness.
 

TL,DR version of this post: What if we used two checks, one rolled by the hidden thing vs. passive perception, and the other by the party against a fixed DC once the party is on the right track. I think the results could encourage interesting interaction with the environment, with room for rolling, by avoiding purely binary outcomes.
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There are some cool ideas above. I think a good goal is to encourage meaningful interaction with the environment, but making it directed enough that we can avoid the boringness of either exhaustive or automatically successful searching.

To me the important thing about passive checks is that they set up scenes and context. Every trap or hidden object is part of some larger context, and I think passive checks can do a great job of informing the party about the context, without revealing the hidden element itself. If done correctly noticing something with passive perception can be an incentive for more creative interaction with the game's reality. In that case passive perception is spidey sense, but it doesn't skip to the end.

Mechanically, I'm wondering if this couldn't be represented with two layers of checks, but really only one at the table. Namely, each hidden element rolls its own check against passive perception (before the game), and those with sufficiently high PPs find its clues. This provides variety in the process, so that sometimes "easy" traps are missed and hard ones are found. The justification is that passive perception is about taking in a lot of information and coming up with the interesting bits. (This process of integrating over lots of information is what makes passive perception perfect for use as an "average" awareness.) For hidden elements the interesting bits are obscured by definition, so what counts as interesting in this case are the context clues. A trap that rolls a low check vs. passive perception basically leaves a lot of context clues which the party can discover. One that is high does not.

The actual finding of a hidden element then uses a fixed DC against which the players roll. The players' active checks are about finding the specific elements that are the hidden thing, and they are therefore perceiving with more limited scope but in greater detail. Here the player's roll represents the wide variety of relevant details one might catch or miss when searching with such specificity (you find it or you don't and there can be plenty of variation) but the difficulty in doing so is basically a function of the hidden element itself.

I might give bonuses to a player's roll if the context clues put them on the right track. And if they figure it out directly, you can just give it to them without a roll. This encourages interaction with the scene, but doesn't leave the whole thing to guesswork. If they miss the passive check they might still search the correct areas, and the good bits of advice earlier in the thread still apply. I think, though, that you can save a lot of time by letting passive perception guide the players, and setting up the expectation that active perception rolls have a fairly narrow scope.

I don't think this is too onerous at the table, because the additional rolls mostly happen before the session. They also give the DM flexibility to make hidden elements easy or difficult in different ways. Truly devious traps are difficult in both respects, but I think it is interesting if the party suspects a trap but cannot find the actual mechanism. That can really ratchet up the tension. It might also be a good mechanic for PCs hiding things or setting up traps themselves. A level whatever trap might have a set DC to find once someone is looking in the right places, but a more skilled PC can make it more difficult for others to figure out something is amiss in the first place.

Let's consider an example: a drowning trap where an enclosed room fills with water. Before the trap has triggered perhaps the floor is wet from its last activation, or if it occurred long ago maybe their is peculiar discoloration of stones in one corner of the room, or some wood that has rotted away in an otherwise well-preserved environment. None of that really gives the trap away, but it can surely set them on the path to specific interaction with the room if they succeed. If they can't find the trap's mechanism, however, perhaps their passive awareness of it prevents the trap from gaining the equivalent of combat advantage when it triggers. If they don't catch the clues at all, we're in the more traditional searching situation. Even here, however, if clues later come to light (say a trap almost triggers, or does trigger but the mechanism remains hidden) the fixed DC to find the specific thing can be used, rather than using the (apparently very high) roll the trap made against passive perception, as would be the case if these were normal opposed checks.
 
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Can someone (or preferably a few people) XP delericho for me. A brilliant, insightful post that I thoroughly enjoyed.

It is posts like these that make EN World so special. I love it when posters go to that much effort in sharing their thoughts and wisdom.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

I must disagree with the OP. First and foremost about percentages. A 70% chance average discovery rate completely negates any character skill. It's always been my peeve of post 2e skill systems to have moving goalposts. Sort of a "you must be this tall to ride" paradigm. Why not just say 70 percent chance?

I should probably clarify this.

You're dead right that if the DM simply looks at the character with the best Perception in the party, adds 7 to his modifier, and thus sets the DC, that would indeed negate any notion of character skill. That wasn't really my intention.

Rather, I think the game should establish a baseline expectation of character skill - at level X, a reasonably specialised character is expected to have a modifier of +Y. Therefore, a dungeon intended for level X should set most DCs at Y+7, effectively giving that reasonable specialist a 70% chance of success. (4e already does this, in essence, with its "Page 42".)

However, when the actual party enters the dungeon, their Rogue might have ultra-specialised in Perception (and so actually have a much higher than 70% chance of success), or he might have focussed on other things (and so have a lower %age chance). Or, indeed, the party might have nobody at all trained in Perception (and so have almost no chance!). All of these are fine, of course, since where they gain in one area they'll lose in another - if their Rogue is ultra-specialised in Perception, he's probably not going to be so good with devices, or stealth, or something else...

So, yeah, my goal was not about negating character skill; rather, it was about ensuring that both character and player skill are represented.
 

Good post! I like a lot of the ideas you put forth here.

I apologize if any of this is a retread. I had a few thoughts pop into my head as I was reading and want to get them down before I forget, so I haven't read any responses yet.


I like your suggestion that passive perception cannot find things. To expand on your idea, perhaps it could be used as a danger sense. It wouldn't allow you to find a trap, but it would allow you to notice the trap as you set it off. Anyone who triggers a trap but doesn't have a sufficient passive value would be surprised by that trap, suffering appropriate penalties. Someone with a high enough value would not suffer those penalties. Any sort of (non-obvious) threat would have a Perception DC, and those with sufficient passive scores would not suffer surprise penalties when triggering it.

I think 3 clues for every hidden element might be excessive. That works out to 30 clues scattered throughout KoS, for example. That's a goodly amount of work for a DM. I think 3 clues is reasonable if the clues are hard to find and/or subtle. I should think that 1 or 2 clues would be sufficient in the case of reasonably obvious clues though (such as a map showing the location of a secret door).

Could you give a few more specific examples of the types of clues you'd use? I'm having difficulty imagining how to offer 3 clues without painting a neon sign. For example, in the case of a decapitating trap I might mention blood on the floor, scratches on the wall, and decapitated skeletal remains. However, that seems so obvious to me that a child could figure it out.

I'm not saying that neon signs are necessarily a bad thing. If the players need to find the secret door to continue the adventure, a map showing its location makes good sense. On the other hand, a map showing the location of every trap in the dungeon is a bit excessive. IMO, traps should be triggered sometimes. There should be clues to warn the wary, but players shouldn't be able to figure them out 100% of the time except in hindsight.
 

Secret chambers are just part of what you can learn about a dungeon. Some of the most interesting secrets are how the residents of a dungeon will react to the PCs. Adventures need clues about that too.

Any exploration adventure needs to have a meta-encounter "explore the dungeon / keep / level" that is explicitly designed to provide a framework for the rest of the exploration. It's not enough to know what the rooms are and what monsters are in them. You need to know how monsters move around the dungeon, how they will respond to intrusion, what areas (or secrets) they will guard and what clues are available so the PCs can learn this information and take advantage of it.

I think the 15-minute adventuring day is a symptom of static, context-less dungeons where monsters sit around waiting to be killed. Whether or not to take an extended rest is a meaningless question if there is no downside to retreat. Instead, there should be a risk of reinforcement, counter-attack or monsters fleeing with their loot, and the adventure should give the PCs the ability to learn enough about these risks that they can make interesting strategic decisions (instead of just tactical decisions).

-KS
 

It wouldn't allow you to find a trap, but it would allow you to notice the trap as you set it off. Anyone who triggers a trap but doesn't have a sufficient passive value would be surprised by that trap, suffering appropriate penalties.

I like that.

I think 3 clues for every hidden element might be excessive. That works out to 30 clues scattered throughout KoS, for example.

"3 clues" is certainly a rule of thumb, and not an absolute. The theory is that the PCs will miss one, misunderstand one, and finally "get it" on with the third.

Remember also that a lot of these clues can be provided together. The poem at the start of "Tomb of Horrors" is a good example of this, and my discussion up-thread of giving the players handouts of adventure background would be another.

That's a goodly amount of work for a DM.

True. This is an area where pre-gen adventures have a big advantage, and also an area where such adventures can really shine.

Could you give a few more specific examples of the types of clues you'd use?

I'll get back to you with some examples. :)
 

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