Porting characters and monsters from 4th Edition to 5th Edition setting?

[Myrhdraak]

One idea I have had growing in my head as I have worked on my own 4.5 Edition (by porting the best new additions from 5th Edition into my 4th Edition campaign), is the possibility to port 4th Edition characters and monsters straight over to 5th Edition. My gut feeling is that it would maybe be possible with a conversion guide to actually take your 4th Edition monster or character and bring it into a 5th Edition setting and being able to co-exist with the 5th Edition monsters and characters.

As we know the damage and defense build up of monsters and characters in both editions you could potentiialy bring the both systems on par by:
- Introducing Bounded Accuracy progression rate into 4th Edition
- Increasing damage output of 4th Edition monsters and characters by adjusting power damage and number of standard actions for various levels
- Porting skill system and advantage/disadvantage rules to 4th Edition.
- etc.

I have not started to dig into a full mathematical model of it, but on an overall level it looks doable. Any thoughts? (except the obvious different that half the party plays out the battle in their minds, while the 4th Edition guys are running the battle on a battle map with miniatures).

/Myrhdraak

 

[Tony Vargas]

That was a sorta blue-sky non-promise when 4e had been killed and the upcoming Next playtest was announced. Pretty obviously dropped it early on, settling for a core game that played mostly like AD&D, with some optional rules and modules to make it run even more like AD&D or more like 3.5, if you wanted.

Introducing Bounded Accuracy progression rate into 4th Edition

4e already has proficiency bonuses, so it'd be a simple matter of switching from +1/2 level to +1/5 level, which'd give you the same net +4 over 20 levels as 5e bounded accuracy (extending to +6 over 30 levels). To 'do' 5e even more closely, give the bonus only if you are proficient with the weapon or trained in the skill, and only give it to non-AC defenses your class gets a bonus in (ouch!). You'd also want to do away with magic items, or about halve their bonuses. For monsters, switch from +1/level to +1/3 level.

- Porting advantage/disadvantage rules to 4th Edition.

Replace Combat Advantage, and any Power Bonus of +2-5, or circumstancial bonus (typically +2) with Advantage. Replace any penalty with Disadvantage.

Increasing damage output of 4th Edition monsters and characters by adjusting power damage and number of standard actions for various levels

Number of standard actions would be sheer folly. Boosting damage should be fairly straightforward - increase the damage dice or [W]. One way of doing 'multiple attacks' in 4e that's less broken & problematic is to make the requisite number of attack rolls. If only one hits, roll damage normally, for additional 'attack' that hits, increment the damage die/[W] by one. So if you're attacking 3 times with a scimitar (d8 + 8, say), and you hit twice, you'd do 2d8+8 to one target, or 1d8+8 each to two targets. If you're using a power rather than a basic attack, and hit two or more targets, one would take the power's full effects, and the others would take a basic attack (with more dice rolled if hit more than once).

 

[dave2008]

One idea I have had growing in my head as I have worked on my own 4.5 Edition (by porting the best new additions from 5th Edition into my 4th Edition campaign), is the possibility to port 4th Edition characters and monsters straight over to 5th Edition. My gut feeling is that it would maybe be possible with a conversion guide to actually take your 4th Edition monster or character and bring it into a 5th Edition setting and being able to co-exist with the 5th Edition monsters and characters.

As we know the damage and defense build up of monsters and characters in both editions you could potentiialy bring the both systems on par by:
- Introducing Bounded Accuracy progression rate into 4th Edition
- Increasing damage output of 4th Edition monsters and characters by adjusting power damage and number of standard actions for various levels
- Porting skill system and advantage/disadvantage rules to 4th Edition.
- etc.

I have not started to dig into a full mathematical model of it, but on an overall level it looks doable. Any thoughts? (except the obvious different that half the party plays out the battle in their minds, while the 4th Edition guys are running the battle on a battle map with miniatures).

/Myrhdraak

Not sure if you saw it, but WotC released a conversion document this week. I've downloaded it, but haven't read it yet. I hear it is pretty simple and light guidelines.

One thing I've noticed is 5e CR is roughly 2/3 monster level in 4e. It might work to keep the damage of 4e monsters (MM3 damage guide) and just adjust the level down 2/3. That would be fairly simple and reasonably close.

 

[Myrhdraak]

Yes I just saw that. There some good input there. However, they are forcing you switch to 5th Edition (where I would loose the tactical combat element). I am more interested to see if it (with some modifications) was possible to play my 4th Edition character at the same table as some people play their 5th Edition character.

/Myrhdraak

 

[Tony Vargas]

I am more interested to see if it (with some modifications) was possible to play my 4th Edition character at the same table as some people play their 5th Edition character.

Not really, no. Conversion is a matter of re-building an existing character in the new edition, not of porting over individual mechanics and grinding them down until they fit. With a little luck and an open mind, you can model the same general character concept.

You can port this or that mechanical bit, like Advantage or Healing Surges from one edition to the other if you're running the game, the DM has prettymuch carte blanche when it comes to variants.

 

[MoutonRustique]

By design, 5e is a good deal more narrow than what the full 4e is in terms of options and mechanical implementations.

Some concepts will port over w/o effort, some... they'll fit as well as that square peg we all used the hammer to "fit" in the hexagonal hole (or was that just me?)

My 4e wizard is mechanically (and thematically, and well... basically pretty much anything other than "height, hair, eye colour and age" is quite different) unrecognizable in 5e. But my friend's "rogue/bard" had a seamless transition. So... YMMV.

 

[Tony Vargas]

By design, 5e is a good deal more narrow than what the full 4e is in terms of options and mechanical implementations.

I'll quibble with that: The mechanical implementations of classes are much more diverse, for instance. There are fewer options because it's still new, and the pace of supplementation is low, but those options do cover a broad range, just with coarser granularity.

Some concepts will port over w/o effort, some... they'll fit as well as that square peg we all used the hammer to "fit" in the hexagonal hole (or was that just me?)

Is it really the concept, or the implementation that won't port over? About the worst thing you could try to get working in 5e is probably Garthanos's 'Princess Build,' a non-casting, virtual non-combatant, whose allies out-do themselves for her sake. You could do that concept in 5e: take the Noble background and rogue for useful non-combat skills (the latest rogue archetype would work a little better than thief, but it'd do), pick up Inspiring Leader, and count on everyone to RP your importance to them. You wouldn't be carrying your own weight, but you could do it, the mechanical implementation is just non-viable.

My 4e wizard is mechanically (and thematically, and well... basically pretty much anything other than "height, hair, eye colour and age" is quite different) unrecognizable in 5e.

Surprising. The concept of a Wizard in both eds is 'gains magical power from book learning in a sort of vaguely Gandalfy/Hermetic way, and 'prepares' spells,' and it's not like there's a lot a 4e wizard could do that a 5e wizard couldn't.

But my friend's "rogue/bard" had a seamless transition.

Makes some sense: the two classes de-facto retain their 4e sources & roles in 5e, the Rogue still SA's the Bard still uses arcane magic to support his party.

 

[MoutonRustique]

I'll quibble with that: The mechanical implementations of classes are much more diverse, for instance. There are fewer options because it's still new, and the pace of supplementation is low, but those options do cover a broad range, just with coarser granularity.

True - but there are much fewer mechanical options that the full 4e. Because of the slow release, which is by design. Hence - 5e is more narrow (on the whole), by design.

Not a bad thing - but still a thing.

Is it really the concept, or the implementation that won't port over? About the worst thing you could try to get working in 5e is probably Garthanos's 'Princess Build,' a non-casting, virtual non-combatant, whose allies out-do themselves for her sake. You could do that concept in 5e: take the Noble background and rogue for useful non-combat skills (the latest rogue archetype would work a little better than thief, but it'd do), pick up Inspiring Leader, and count on everyone to RP your importance to them. You wouldn't be carrying your own weight, but you could do it, the mechanical implementation is just non-viable.

Yeah, in a way, of course it's implementation. But I'm a big proponent of "you are what you can do" - so concept and implementation go hand in hand for me. I know that for others, the link needn't be as strong.

Surprising. The concept of a Wizard in both eds is 'gains magical power from book learning in a sort of vaguely Gandalfy/Hermetic way, and 'prepares' spells,' and it's not like there's a lot a 4e wizard could do that a 5e wizard couldn't.

My wizard was on his way to being a "True Namer" (demon summoning/binding/control) and had pretty much only custom summon monster [number] in 3.x - when he got ported over to 4e, I was able to refluff most of my powers to create very similar effects.

In 5e... not so much. It'd take about 17 levels' worth of multiple classes to get to what my character was about in 4e - which is a problem, since we're only level 11... Also, there's a big loss in granularity that particularly affects my character as he had "portions" of many of the 5e feats - which is an obvious problem when porting over.

To get closer to what he was about (and how he played at the table), the best class would probably be the druid - but then I have to deal with the whole "animal shape" thing...

There are many homebrew options that would fairly quickly solve my woes, but we're trying to keep pretty close to rules as presented (RAP?) for the caster classes. It's not that the character itself doesn't work (although in my experience at the table - he doesn't... ) it's that he's not really recognizable as the same character in a "you are what you can do" sense.

 

[Tony Vargas]

True - but there are much fewer mechanical options that the full 4e. Because of the slow release, which is by design. Hence - 5e is more narrow (on the whole), by design.

Not a bad thing - but still a thing.

I don't disagree, exactly. Like I it's a quibble, but I maintain that the breadth or range of options isn't any less in 5e, might even be more. Maybe I'm not putting it well.

How, 'bout, just how different can two characters be. In 4e a Slayer and a Mage were pretty darn different. Even if they were the only two options, they still wouldn't seem narrow, since they're far removed from eachother. In 5e a Champion and a Transmuter, say, are even more different from eachother than that. There may be plenty of things that'd fall between them that you can't do, but it's not narrow.

Yeah, in a way, of course it's implementation. But I'm a big proponent of "you are what you can do" - so concept and implementation go hand in hand for me. I know that for others, the link needn't be as strong.

My wizard was on his way to being a "True Namer" (demon summoning/binding/control) and had pretty much only custom summon monster [number] in 3.x - when he got ported over to 4e, I was able to refluff most of my powers to create very similar effects.

Re-fluffing cuts the the game a lot of slack as far as being what you can do.

In 5e... not so much.

You can't cut it the same re-fluffing slack? 5e might mix fluff and rules a bit, but nothing insurmountable, especially if the DM is willing.

It'd take about 17 levels' worth of multiple classes to get to what my character was about in 4e - which is a problem, since we're only level 11... Also, there's a big loss in granularity that particularly affects my character as he had "portions" of many of the 5e feats - which is an obvious problem when porting over.

To get closer to what he was about (and how he played at the table), the best class would probably be the druid - but then I have to deal with the whole "animal shape" thing...

An alternative to that might be nice someday...

It's not that the character itself doesn't work (although in my experience at the table - he doesn't... ) it's that he's not really recognizable as the same character in a "you are what you can do" sense.

This may be begging the question, but isn't 'what you can do' also subject to a conceptual level, thus allowing re-fluffing like you did with 4e? So your Druid isn't exactly a druid, and shortchanging is a form of summoning in which you trade places with the summoned animal until it's dropped, for instance... (that almost makes more sense, actually).

 

[Myrhdraak]

By design, 5e is a good deal more narrow than what the full 4e is in terms of options and mechanical implementations.

Some concepts will port over w/o effort, some... they'll fit as well as that square peg we all used the hammer to "fit" in the hexagonal hole (or was that just me?)

My 4e wizard is mechanically (and thematically, and well... basically pretty much anything other than "height, hair, eye colour and age" is quite different) unrecognizable in 5e. But my friend's "rogue/bard" had a seamless transition. So... YMMV.

Well as 5e do not help me with the itch to run tactical combats with "theaters of the mind", I am after being able to modify my 4th Edition characters into 5th edition so the players that want to run tactical combat can do that within 5th Edition. Dealing same average damage per round as their 5th edition counterparts, and having the defenses and HP that allow them to face the monsters in the same way as the 5th Edition characters.
Basically fulfilling the WothC promise of 5th Edition being able to be played as every ediition before.