D&D 4E Positive Aspects of 4E

[Traycor]

This purpose of this thread is so that posters can express the things they like about 4e. So much debate goes back and forth, and minor dislikes are harped so heavily, that I think many people have forgotten what it is that they even like in 4e.

- Players can be meaningful heroes at lvl 1
- Points of Light means that being a hero is now meaningful, instead of an occupation
- Fighters getting special abilities with all weapons. Big big win!
- Healing abilities for all classes (and non-reliance on clerics)
- Compound abilities that allow for both needed and fun actions at the same time
- Less Christmas tree magic items from the Big 6 arms race
- The best elements of Star Wars Saga that many players love
- Reduced and consolidated skill lists
- Social combat rules in core (hopefully!). I loves my RP and this will give players that don’t RP very well a chance to still participate in these kinds of interactions.
- Combat against more opponents at once. This creates more action and a more heroic feel. The players feel more capable.
- More combats in a day. Allowing players to continue battling as they wish creates a greater immersion and sense of heroism. In most novels, a hero will push on and on until they can’t go anymore because of their drive and passion. In previous editions it was hard to mirror this common heroic mentality without a TPK.
- New magic system. Thank. God.
- Abilities for all classes. Even fighters can do cool stuff now besides swing that sword.
- Simplified rules ah la grapple
- Streamlined stat-blocks and less rigid rules for making monsters.
- Monster have unique abilities instead of huge lists of wizard spells. It’s more interesting and less work all at the same time.
- Choice of race is going to be meaningful at all levels. The races are more distinct and will have flavorful abilities at all lvls. Race now means more than just RP, which will inject racial flavor regardless of the amount of RP at the table. This is a big win!
- Elemental planes (and other exotic locations) that are now reasonable to adventure in.
- Demons and Devils that aren’t clones of each other. Real reasons for the distinction in creature type between the two.
- Tieflings and Dragonborn. They need not be in every game or setting, but if players want to be a planar being or a dragon, they now have a balanced, built in option in the core. These are commonly requested and I feel it was a brilliant move.
- Online tools that allow me to game with my old college buddies that have scattered to the winds.
- Sanctioned PDF versions of my books online. With updated errata!!
- Classes that are distinct and meaningful.
- Defining of roles to make things clearer to some players, but at the same time removing the need and reliance on having a role-filled party. Woot for 3 wizards and a rogue! Our last big game went to lvl 28 without a cleric or a wizard, so I know how much of a headache roles were in 3e.
- Unified numbers on class progression. This means less tables, less space in my books, and less confusion. Also less high lvl disparity. Since my last big campaign started at lvl 1 and went all the way up to lvl 28, I can vastly appreciate this unified progression.
- Simplified magic item pricing
- Multiclassing that really, truly works without gimping the character. Just from what little we’ve been shown it is vastly superior to the current format.
- WotC taking a stand on not including classes unless they are quality. Bards are probably my favorite class and I love to include them in my games… but I would much rather wait and have them done right than have another half-baked version released.
- Wizard implements. While the specifics are still being tweaked on how this will work, the wizard class was in sore need of things to distinguish members of the class. It allows for means of customization closer to what melee classes have available, and it makes magic staves/wands more than disposable batteries.
- Epic levels are built into the core. This should avoid much of the bizarre nature of epic level play.
- Simplified math at epic levels. Anyone who’s played lvl 21+ can do naught but cry with joy at such news.
- Diety dump in the FR. I know this is a sore subject for some people, but FR had waaaay too many deities. You could practically expect the local king to assend to godhood if he had enough locals that praised him. The portfolios had gotten way too crowded. “I’m the god of malice. And I’m the god of hatred. And I’m the god of anger. And I’m the god of bad tempers. Hey guys, I’m the god of fury. Don’t forget me, the god of rage.”
- Alignment revisions. Most creatures should be unaligned and fewer mechanics should rely on this. A very very positive change.
- No confirming crits. Makes for more cheering moments on the part of the players.
- Rogues can sneak attack undead and other such opponents. Crits work too! Woot!
- Necromancers and Illusionists becoming their own classes. This is huge. I can’t begin to express my joy. These needed their own mechanics badly.
- Feats are having their focus narrowed. This will simplify the game, streamline the character abilities at higher levels, and avoid much of the feat related power creep all in one swift stroke.
- Paladins can smite anyone! I play more realistic games where not all opponents are evil (and many are neutral built into the system anyways). My paladin player was always frustrated that she couldn’t smite so often. I like this change.
- Warlord class. Whether you like the name or not, it’s good to have a melee based class that is built on inspiration and leadership. This is far more iconic in fiction than the bard (and I love the bard) so it is a more flexible archetype for new players to latch onto.
- Swordmage class. This is a personal pet peeve and I truly hope it is revised to make it into the PHB 1

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I enjoyed hearing in the races and classes scoop that humans will have homelands and something of a niche now. I've never enjoyed fantasy with a "it's the real world with fully diversified humans everywhere, plus these limited races in their little areas" feel. If they had given humans a "favored class" as well, I would forgive them the gnome exclusion....

 

[kennew142]

I am especially excited about four elements:

1) Changing the magic system: I have been playing D&D since 1979 and I have never liked the D&D/Vancian magic system. Introducing sorcerers in 3e was a step in the right direction. The 3.5 psionics system was another. But the few hints we've had at the wizard class in 4e sound even better. My only real issue is the possibility that I will have to add enchantments, scrying, polymorph, summoning, etc... back into the game through house rules. All of these elements are too important to be left out IMNSHO.

2) Making monsters qualitatively different from PCs: I thought the transparency issue was a good idea when 3e came out, but have done a complete turnabout on this issue. I want monsters to do what monsters do best, provide adversaries for PCs. I don't need to see every monster written up like a PC.

3) Maneuvers/Talents for non-fx characters: I am so happy that fighters (et alii) will be able to do cool things with their weapons in 4e. I've been using the Bo9S and I am really happy with the concept. My only complaint on this issue is with some of the naming conventions.

4) Reducing the importance of magic items: I can't say how disappointed I was in 3e with the default assumption that every small town had multiple magic shops where characters could peruse the Magic Item Catalogue and purchase any item that suited their fancy. I don't mind the occasional GM designed magic shop where in certain items could be purchased, but the trope that anyone could purchase anything they wanted led to a marked blandness.

I could go on, but these were the main sticking points for me.

 

[Imban]

Not to rain on your thread so much, but a few of these seem like so much empty talk for now:

- Defining of roles to make things clearer to some players, but at the same time removing the need and reliance on having a role-filled party. Woot for 3 wizards and a rogue! Our last big game went to lvl 28 without a cleric or a wizard, so I know how much of a headache roles were in 3e.

This just confuses me - while you need magic users in 3e for sure, you can get by pretty easily with a Cleric/Wizard/Wizard/Cleric party or such. Really, this is one of those things that's going to need months of actual play by thousands of people to hammer out.

- Multiclassing that really, truly works without gimping the character. Just from what little we’ve been shown it is vastly superior to the current format.

Did I miss something? Last I looked, we've been told very little about multiclassing except for a "(Class) Training" feat set that may well be out of date given preview comments that multiclassing was very much in flux, and even if that was the definite, cold, hard truth, I'd be hesitant to claim that as vastly superior to the current format based on just designer assurances with no real mechanics provided.

- Feats are having their focus narrowed. This will simplify the game, streamline the character abilities at higher levels, and avoid much of the feat related power creep all in one swift stroke.

I don't really see these benefits yet, myself. I don't see the "narrowing" of feats as something that will simplify the game (though certainly only having the corebook's selection to choose from when 4e comes out will simplify things for a while), and I'm pretty darn sure feat-related power creep will still exist in the exact same way as long as people print splatbooks with new feats in them.

(I'm not really sure what you meant by streamlining the character abilities at higher levels, so...)

There are other changes that I don't like, certainly, and I like a lot of the ones you posted, but some of these seem based on almost nothing but "We've made changes, and it'll be good, we promise!" - which, while nice, isn't the most confidence-inspiring thing.

 

[Zaruthustran]

My only real issue is the possibility that I will have to add enchantments, scrying, polymorph, summoning, etc... back into the game through house rules. All of these elements are too important to be left out IMNSHO.

I agree with all your points, and the OP's. Just wanted to comment on the specific spell types you mentioned. It's my understanding that those effects are all possible via rituals.

In 3e, a wizard could mumble and gesture for 6 seconds and out pops a Balor. He snaps his fingers, and the target is brain-washed for weeks at a time. That's silly.

In 4E, such mighty magics will now require 1) a formula (that could be given out as treasure), 2) exotic ingredients that don't fit in a generic all-purpose "spell component pouch", 3) a suitably meaningful length of time.

Fantasy fiction has all sorts of multi-day spells, quests for rare (or unique!) components, mass sacrifice, and so on. 3E didn't really have a mechanic for these sorts of effects; it didn't really give a reason for the BBEG to slaughter thousands of innocents or build a secluded tower filled with summoning circles, laboratories, and libraries. From the looks of things, 4e does.

Hurray!

So in 4E, wizards can ignite firebursts all day long like Tim the Enchanter, and they can also cook up ritual healing magic or re-forge artifacts like Elrond.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Fantasy fiction has all sorts of multi-day spells, quests for rare (or unique!) components, mass sacrifice, and so on. 3E didn't really have a mechanic for these sorts of effects; it didn't really give a reason for the BBEG to slaughter thousands of innocents or build a secluded tower filled with summoning circles, laboratories, and libraries. From the looks of things, 4e does.

Book of Vile Darkness had some GREAT stuff that I only got the chance to scratch the surface of. Sadly, never got my campaign to the point where the players were trying to stop Apocalypse From the Sky.

 

[Pygon]

- Sped up gameplay

Depending on the amount of reduced dice rolling, I may put some back in.

- Dice math that "works" in ALL the levels

This I am very eager to see. No more fragile level 6- characters and immediate do or die level 14+ fights.

 

[delericho]

Fantasy fiction has all sorts of multi-day spells, quests for rare (or unique!) components, mass sacrifice, and so on. 3E didn't really have a mechanic for these sorts of effects; it didn't really give a reason for the BBEG to slaughter thousands of innocents or build a secluded tower filled with summoning circles, laboratories, and libraries.

Well, it did, but it was in the form of the much-maligned Epic spellcasting. Also, I bet some third-party supplements dealt with this.

 

[Traycor]

Not to rain on your thread so much, but a few of these seem like so much empty talk for now:

No probs. I knew ahead of time that some of these would probably have people scratching their heads.

This just confuses me - while you need magic users in 3e for sure, you can get by pretty easily with a Cleric/Wizard/Wizard/Cleric party or such. Really, this is one of those things that's going to need months of actual play by thousands of people to hammer out.

A multi-cleric and multi-wiz party was well off, but almost any combination that didn't have a cleric & and a wiz/sorcerer was in a world of hurt. I remember one time we tried to run a game with a monk, rogue, and a bard. The results weren't very pretty. From what we are being told, such strange combinations could now be viable (especially with abilities such as second wind)

Did I miss something? Last I looked, we've been told very little about multiclassing except for a "(Class) Training" feat set that may well be out of date given preview comments that multiclassing was very much in flux, and even if that was the definite, cold, hard truth, I'd be hesitant to claim that as vastly superior to the current format based on just designer assurances with no real mechanics provided.

While we don't have specifics, we do have some tidbits that are very enlightening. In one of the playtests, the character is primarily a Warlord with a wiz level, yet he is roasting up opponents on the barby. Under 3E there would have been no roasting. In fact, in 3E the character with 1 wiz lvl would have picked a utility spell only to memorize because offensive magic would have been pointless.

I don't really see these benefits yet, myself. I don't see the "narrowing" of feats as something that will simplify the game (though certainly only having the corebook's selection to choose from when 4e comes out will simplify things for a while), and I'm pretty darn sure feat-related power creep will still exist in the exact same way as long as people print splatbooks with new feats in them.

I see your point, but if feats aren't introducing all-new abilities, but are instead enhancing current ones, there is a certain amount of power creep that will be culled from the system. I could see new talent trees causing creep, but feats under this new method are less likely.

(I'm not really sure what you meant by streamlining the character abilities at higher levels, so...)

We've been told that even epic level characters will be in the "sweet spot" on the balance of abilities and math that the characters have available. While we don't know exactly what this means yet, there is no possible way that players have the vast amount of strange abilities at high levels that they have in 3E. Once we were in epic levels even my melee players had to keep pages worth of notes on what powers they had, and would forget some of them for several game sessions in a row.
Simplifying those numbers/abilities to match lvl 12 play is a vast streamlining of high level abilities.

 

[Eldragon]

- Swordmage class. This is a personal pet peeve and I truly hope it is revised to make it into the PHB 1

Agreed, nothing would make me more excited about 4e than this class becoming core. It has always seemed like such an obvious choice, and is a staple of many fantasy books.

Including it would also be the only thing to make me preorder 4e (otherwise I was going to thumb through it at the store for a few hours, then decide).

Maybe we should start a petition....

I'm excited about the new "spells" that are usable per encounter. The 1 Min/Level spells had become defacto per encounter spells at our table anyway. No one wanted to track "game time" down to that level of detail.