Positive Energy vs Negative Energy...good vs evil?

rom90125

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I am currently running a FR campaign and recently our group had a long discussion about whether or not negative energy should be associated to 'evil' as defined in the PHB. Although the core rules clearly imply that negative energy is evil, as the DM, I do not agree with this. I support the opinion that negative energy is nothing more than the opposite of positive energy with no correlation to morality (good vs evil). One of the PCs in the group is a devout paladin of Tyr who has decided to answer a greater calling as a Fist of Raziel (BoED). The issue our group is having is this... The Pal/FoR character has recently been directed to work with another character who started out as an evil necromancer but who had an epiphany many, many years ago and has been recently accepted as a Harper Scout. The necromancer had no reason to believe her previous dealings in creating or rebuking undead was 'wrong' as her society accepted this as acceptable behavior. But since her 'enlightenment' the necromancer has limited her necromancy to creating or rebuking undead to assist her with the cause of bringing justice to the land, and she always destroys the undead when she is done with them (versuses letting them roam). For the necromancer, she sees these actions as no more or less evil than resurrection...both are perversions of the normal cycle of life.

I am curious to know what others think of this situation. The Pal/FoR is not sure she can accept the necromancers actions, because she was trained to believe the creation of undead is an evil act. But her discussions with other PC's, including the necromancer/harper scout, has her beginning to question whether the world can be defined in strictly white or black, right or wrong, actions.
 

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*figures this is why I like Scarred Lands.* For me I'm in the same boat as you. Of course it would be NICE if the god of the dead was TN instead of LN, but there you are.

In any event, the paladin should learn to accept that some people just don't see it the same way he/she does. Therefore he/she should try (not with fighting or even words) to show the rightness of her god. In the case of Tyr, I'd say go around showing that law and goodness are not mutually exclusive. A good example would be to fight some Banites. :)

Of course I'm sure people will say the opposite or something completely different but at least I a) did try to help out and b) put in a Scarred Lands posting too! ;)
 

Well, the source of one problem here is obvious. You're using the Book of Erroneous Design, where it seems that anything that isn't in that book is 'evil'. I could bring up the joke that is poisons and ravages (or Karma Juice as I call it), but it's been done to death.

Positive and Negative energy being inherently good and evil is, IMHO, a big steaming load of dog excrement. They are nothing more than the primal forces that predate even Selune and Shar, matter and anti-matter, life and anti-life. Positive energy is not nice, if you take a look at the Manual of the Planes you'll see that the Positive Energy plane can easily kill you, its only marginally less dangerous than the Negative Plane. And then there's Energons, the Xeg-Yi and Xeg-Ya, who have all the moral direction of an Elemental, they simply are.

The fact is though, that one is more easily turned to evil ends than the other. The undead are often associated with evil, since yes, they are mockeries of life, and have the unfortunate habit of killing people, since negative energy, by its very nature, consumes and snuffs life. But no matter what that stinking BoED says, I run with the Arcanis method: that (quoting PGtA) "...the character's intent and execution make the difference between good or evil, not the simple use of a spell."

So to bring it back to your necromancer, if they're animating the undead to harass and torment the enemy (or, god<s> forbid, using the corpses of the enemy's friends and loved ones) then it's evil. If they're using random stiffs, then dismissing them and putting them back, there's no issue.

And if it's making one of those stinkin' Paladins question their world-view, even better. I maintain that a GM has a DUTY to make the do so.

Nightfall, good to see someone else who thinks death deities should be TN. It's the great equalizer after all. Then again, IMC, the Death godess is Tn with a mostly NG clergy...damn. Maybe we should all go the Arcanis route and say gods have no alignment, churches do.
 

IMO, positive and negative energy are nothing more than life and death. While most people agree that life is good and death is bad, it is difficult to truly assign moral connotation to those concepts.
 

Positive and Negative Energy are the energies that fuel life and death - essential building blocks of creation. They are natural, neutral things in and of themselves. Natural does not mean good, unnatural does not mean evil. Natural vs Un-, and Good vs Evil are two seperate conflicts. The main problem that arises is that many uses of Negative Energy are in fact evil, but the same thing can be said of any dangerous element such as Fire.

Negative Energy isn't evil in and of itself, but you can do evil with it. Likewise, you could burn someone to death with Fire or drown someone with Water and those things wouldn't be any more evil for the wrong that was wrought using them.
 

I shall rant about my conclusions here. Accurate or not, I hope they are enlightening.

What Sejs said. Humans are (presumably) built out of positive energy, some Earth and Water, and precious little Good, Evil, Law, or Chaos (or perhaps quite a bit of each, in relative balance). The positive energy doesn't seem to predispose the alignment of living things - ask a kobold or a unicorn. Heck, ask a balor, it benefits from positive energy in the form of healing spells, so its lifeforce must be identical to ours on some level.

Undead, meanwhile, are animated by negative energy. There's something important to realise here: they're animated. Negative energy does exactly the same thing as positive, they just react badly. That's why necromantic powers and negative energy spells hurt people. They're not innately predisposed towards death and decay - they're just the equal opposite of our lifeforce, and when they meet they anihilate.

Now, undead are not native negative-life creatures. They're shells animated by negative-life patterns, manufactured by spells or by a self-reproduction clause in their 'parent' undead. Do you think there could be native negative-life creatures without all the stigma attached to undead? Could you animate the dead with positive energy? And why haven't people tried doing that before? Would negative-life people raise positive-life undead? Why are there no negative outsiders?

Yes, OK, I've got some ideas on the subject already. But I might refine them further...
 

I don't think the real issue here is whether positive/negative energy represents good/evil. The *real* issue is what your characters "beliefs" are regarding the good/evil/positive/negative debate.

Mere mortals cannot hope to understand such things. Maybe they are black and white .. maybe there are shades of grey .. or maybe it's something we just weren't meant to (or are incapable of) truly understanding the truth of?

However, this difference of belief presents some wonderful roleplaying opportunties between these two characters, each trying to sway the other over to their way of thinking, expressing disapproval over the other's views or actions, or setting an example for the other through their own actions.

I vote the DM shouldn't enter into the debate regarding good/evil/positive/negative .. he should just let his players express their own views through roleplay, or even actively encourage it, as long as it doesn't become disruptive to the game or the enjoyment of others.

Cheers
 
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The problem here seems rooted in a few paradoxes in the rules.

The spells for creating and/or animating dead are all of the [Evil] descriptor. This means, by letter of the rules, the spell detects as evil with a detect evil spell (and palading ability). It can be interpreted that casting such a spell is also an evil act, but at best it is a neutral act.

Rebuking undead is the purview of neutral or evil clerics and is an ability provided only by neutral and evil deities. It requires the channeling of negative energy. The servant of a good deity would certainly see the reliance upon morally flexible (neutral) divinities as pushing the boundaries of goodness, if not plain unethical.

The planar traits of the Negative Energy Plane and Positive Energy Plane clearly indicate that neither is aligned in any way. Neither one has an alignment trait. Both are antithetical to life as a character knows it, though positive energy is life edifying in smaller amounts, while negative energy is life denying in similar amounts. Anti-life certainly equals evil in many minds, but this is a philosophical point. However, evidenced by the attitudes of most undead, connection to the Negative Energy Plane seems to make the creature in question seek to destroy life, because...

Almost all undead are "always evil." The exceptions are ghosts (any alignment) and mummies (usually evil). Since most undead are always evil, manipulating them even to a good purpose could, philosophically, be seen as trucking with evil. In a morally absolute sense (see below), it is probably neutral behavior at best. The paladin is right to think this sort of behavior is unethical, if not evil--regardless of who the "stiffs" once were.

Alignment, in core D&D, is a moral absolute, thusly allowing spells to affect targets based upon their alignments. FR, by the letter of the rules again, relies on the same sort of moral absolutes. It could be argued , therefore, that trucking with evil spells (creating undead) is morally evil in an absolute sense. Whether or not the spellcaster is evil, the act of casting such a spell is evil. By this token, the paladin is also correct in her assumption that the necromancer is not a worthy companion.

Also, skimming the dogma of Tyr in Faiths and Pantheons, the Tyrrans seem to be little concerned with undead in a general sense, unless those undead are lawbreakers or harmful to the weak (likely). A Tyrran is also interested in enforcing local law. Is the use creation and manipulation of undead legal in the territory in which the game occurs? Is it legal within any canon of law with which the paladin is familiar? If not, there’s trouble a brewin’.

The Fist of Raziel class requires the character to be a warrior against evil. Righteousness probably demands she not associate with persons who use evil magic. In fact, it may demand even worse repercussions.

Just about everything else, including many things posted here, is a philosophical issue, not a rules example.

BUT...

Is this the type of game you're running? What you've suggested with your post is a less-rigid system of moral definition. If you've fudged this system to make a more flexible morality, does the paladin's player understand this?

Is the necromancer's culture evil? Within the rules of the core D&D game, it seems unlikely for it to be anything better than neutral. It accepts the casting of evil spells (according to the rules again) as a cultural norm.

(Diverging from the topic.) We see in Eberron examples of moral flexibility. Unfortunately, this doesn't help much, because the Eberron milieu (and, indeed, core D&D through Book of Exalted Deeds) creates a whole new monster type for "good" undead tied to the Positive Energy Plane -- the deathless type.

Would that hey had just altered the undead type to accommodate undead tied to positive energy, but this makes it harder to write rules. It's easier to just write "undead" or "deathless" than it is to write "undead tied to negative energy." That the "Any alignment" ghost is still an anomaly notwithstanding. Perhaps, since you’re using Book of Exalted Deeds, you should house rule a few things, such as good undead (including baelnorns and archliches) all being actually deathless, evil undead remaining the same, and neutral undead an unknowable middle ground (some are deathless, some are undead.)

(Back on topic.) If your campaign allows for moral flexibility (unlike core D&D) wherein the manipulation of (evil) undead can be good based on the motivations of the manipulator, you should explain this to the paladin’s player. Then he or she can make an educated decision based on the truth of your campaign world. There’s no arguing with that.

(However, "what if" scenarios exist to thwart even this line of reasoning. The paladin could argue that the act of creating evil undead is too risky, even if the motivation is good. What if the party were killed before they destroyed these corpse minions? Harm would eventually come to others for this careless and selfish act.)

This, then, really becomes a problem of a lack of definition of the game world in terms of how morally flexible the alignments are. You need to correct that. If negative energy creates undead and positive energy the deathless, then the "necromancer" should really be converted to a character with power over the deathless. (Unfortunately, only Eberron has spells that allow the creation of deathless, though such things should be easy enough to extrapolate from create undead and others. Yes, regarding what s/LASH asked, these spells use positive energy to animate corpses.)

Whether or not the DM enters the debate, the DM has to know how the cosmology of his world functions. A character, such as a paladin, needn't have faith or mere opinion on the matter of whether animating the dead is good or evil. She can use detect evil and the answer is right in front of her eyes.

Still, the characters’ coming to grips with a moral quandary is great for roleplaying purposes. (This supposes you, as DM, understand the true moral nature of the use of undead within your own game.) Will they be able to reconcile their obvious cultural differences?

Anyhoo, my 2 coppers.
 
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The descriptor of the Animate Dead spell is [Evil], so doing it for whatever reason is probably an inherently evil act. Death and Unlife are two different things, though they're usually closely related. The spell Undeath to Death is a Necromancy spell, but it could be seen as restoring the natural order of death to these creatures. I don't go entirely with the 'it's just energy' idea for Positive and Negative energy; negative energy heals undead.
 

*reads previous replies*

What Testament said, I couldn't have said it better myself. The energy types are utterly neutral and divorced from alignment, it just happens that negative energy can be used to more purposes seen as evil. However in a world suffused with negative energy, would a negative energy suffused being who went around using positive energy be seen as good or be seen as evil? The use of positive energy in that context would certainly hurt or destroy its fellow negative energy infused fellows. The context and intent of the energy use is all that matters, regardless of what the BoED says.
 

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