Possible alternate cleric spellcasting

[Rybaer]

Here's an idea I'd been toying with for an alternate system of cleric spellcasting. The primary intent is to give it more of a spontaneous feel...that the cleric is calling upon his deity on the spot for specific intervention.

Mechanic changes:
1. Cleric casts one less spell per day of each spell level.
2. All cleric spells are cast spontaneously (no advance preparation of specific spells).
3. (Could still enforce requirement of cleric to spend 1 hour a day in silent prayer/meditation to refresh their allotment.)

Play style changes:
1. Player of the cleric should role-play the "prayer" for divine intervention, then tell the DM which specific spell he/she expects to fulfill the deity's response.
2. DM gains the flexibility to have the deity "refuse" to answer the prayer if he feels it is outside their domain. Generally, this would be reserved for gross violations


Anyone have any thoughts on this? Primarily, I'm wondering how people feel the reduction in spells per day balances against the flexibility to call upon any spell. In looking through the cleric spell list, my first inclination is that it balances pretty well. The catch may be at higher levels, where having certain spells can have a huge impact on how an encounter plays out.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Mechanics:

One fewer spell per level per day is a fair sacrifice but always having the right spell from the huge and powerful cleric spell list could be extremely powerful. It would be interesting to see how it worked out, but I think that clerics would be getting the good end of this deal. (If clerics got cut back from 1+1 to 0+1 spells when they gained a new level of spells, it really hurt though. I'm not sure if this is your intention or if you're just not allowing clerics to gain as many spells/day at the high end of their abilities). It might hurt parties with only one cleric out of four or five characters though since most of a cleric's magic tends to go toward healing and reducing the amount of healing available would really reduce the durability of parties.

Play Style changes:

Add one: there would no longer be a mechanical difference between good and evil clerics. In fact, with every cleric able to pick the appropriate spell for the moment, I suspect that the already weak distinction between clerics of different gods would further evaporate.

Other things: I suspect that some players wouldn't enjoy role playing every request for a cure light wounds. "Oh great XYZ, please cure this warrior so he may continue to strive for justice. . . .[Cure Light Wounds] . . . Oh great XYZ, that wasn't really too impressive, this warrior needs many more hit points to strive for justice, please do it again." I've met some players who make up rhymes or couplets for spells they cast, but that's not something that the majority of players seem to do.

Also, granting the DM the flexibility to refuse any prayer would be an anathema to many players who often feel like the DM is out to get them anyways [and it's often true]. It would likely lead to arguments about what was and what wasn't the deity's domain (or at least longwinded arguments about the appropriateness of a harm spell in the guise of a "role-playing" prayer). A lot of players already avoid the cleric class since they don't like to have their powers depend upon something else. If the cleric's powers explicitly depended upon the DM for every spell, I think a lot more players would avoid it.

 

[Eternalknight]

To have a look how I changed the divine spellcasting rules (now called prayers) go to the website in my sig, and click optional rules.

 

[Rybaer]

Okay, couple clarifications...

First, the role-playing aspect of making the prayers for spells would be completely optional. As a DM, I'm often discouraged at how often the player of a cleric tends to forget just where their powers are coming from and what they're supposed to be using them from. I think this would just be a helpful way to encourage good and entertaining role-play.

Second, the DM right to refuse was intended to only be in extreme circumstances. An example being a cleric of the deity of Healing trying to ask for the ability to animate corpses to fight on her behalf. Probably not going to fly with the deity. In essence, not much different than the DM adjudicating when a paladin has violated his code and must seek atonement...only a bit less severe in this case - the prayer is merely ignored.

My biggest concern with this remains the higher level spells. At low levels, I think the cleric may actually be at a bit of a disadvantage under this system, losing out on a few extra spell slots that could be used for critical healing spells. Flexibility in high level spells could be overbalancing. I suppose this could be deflected a bit by a modified spell progression at higher levels, or even delay access to each spell level by one class level (like a sorcerer). Playtest would probably be the only way to tell for certain.


Eternalknight - I looked over the material you suggested and, while I like some of the ideas in there, I think it's too bold a departure from the core rules to have any idea how it'd balance mechanically. Have you tried using this in play?


One other, lesser, house rule I'd considered would be to allow clerics to spontaneously swap any of thier domain spells for an equal level spell-slot, just as they currently can for Cure and Inflict spells. A bit more in fitting with each particular deity's sphere of influence.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Dalamar]

I use this kind of system in my Play by Post in the In Character forum, go check Swashbucklers of the Sword Coast.
The distinction is, that I used that rule to all divine spellcasters and there isn't a totally limited amount of spells any of these can cast. Altho casting more spells or spells of higher level than normally allowed can happen, its unlikely. And if the deity deems so, the spell doesn't have to be the one requested, it may be a lesser or greater one.

 

[Jack Haggerty]

Another option to moderate this change would be to increase the casting time of Cleric's spells. Double them, perhaps?

One other, lesser, house rule I'd considered would be to allow clerics to spontaneously swap any of thier domain spells for an equal level spell-slot, just as they currently can for Cure and Inflict spells. A bit more in fitting with each particular deity's sphere of influence.

Thanks for the feedback.

That is a great idea. Should read "equal level or greater", though. You can always use a smaller spell in place of a bigger one.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

One other, lesser, house rule I'd considered would be to allow clerics to spontaneously swap any of thier domain spells for an equal level spell-slot, just as they currently can for Cure and Inflict spells. A bit more in fitting with each particular deity's sphere of influence.

Thanks for the feedback.

I used this house rule for almost a year and just stopped using it. It works fine when the cleric has domains that mimic normal clerical abilities but domains like travel (the entire party flying all of the time whenever it was convenient was what did it for me) which grant powers that are not normally accessable to clerics, the fact that they can only cast that spell once per day is a major balance point. Allowing the cleric to cast such spells with all his normal cleric spell slots can be quite unbalancing.

 

[Rybaer]

I used this house rule for almost a year and just stopped using it. It works fine when the cleric has domains that mimic normal clerical abilities but domains like travel (the entire party flying all of the time whenever it was convenient was what did it for me) which grant powers that are not normally accessable to clerics, the fact that they can only cast that spell once per day is a major balance point. Allowing the cleric to cast such spells with all his normal cleric spell slots can be quite unbalancing.

I concede the potential for abuse with a few of the domain spells. However, I don't see it being necessarily that bad. I would think that a cleric of travel (to use your example) who is of high enough level that he can afford to burn all his third level spell slots on Fly for his companions should be able to do so. He is a priest of the god of travel, after all. Perhaps some balancing mechanism could be added. Only one domain per cleric?

Oh well, just some thoughts. I'm inclined to hear out anything that differentiates the clerics of one god from another...or, for that matter, differentiates clerics from any other spellcasting class. All too often they seem to be played as heavily armored wizards with a less offensive spell selection than as conduits between their god and its mortal followers.

Thanks for the input all!

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It wasn't actually intentional abuse by my player. It simply ended up giving the party more resources than I wanted them to have and made a bunch of situations that should have been difficult for the party way too easy due to the tactical advantage of flying. I thought about this a bit and came to this conclusion:

A sorceror could do the same thing at sixth level. However, the sorceror would limit his high level spell capability to the fly spell in order to do that. The cleric who spontaneously casts travel and healing domain spells doesn't suffer from that drawback. He can prepare Invisibilty Purge, Searing Light, Cure Serious Wounds (domain slot), and Summon Monster III. If he then needs healing, he can convert those spells. If he needs mobility, he can convert them to fly spells. The cleric ends up with the same power as the sorceror but with a lot more versatility.

I think that your suggestion of limiting domains to one per cleric and eliminating the domain spell slot entirely would go a ways towards eliminating this problem.

For the record, my experience with the party's previous cleric (war and luck domains) (before he died in a really nasty ambush by a mummy, a necromancer, and a horde of bolstered skeletons) was that he prepared almost all heal spells and occasionally used them for his domains spells instead. This suggests that the rule might have the unintended consequence that clerics with the healing domain would actually cast the widest array of non-healing spells (since they could spontaneous them to cures if it was needed).

What I've been thinking of doing to differentiate clerics from each other was play with the turning ability. Clerics of one faith turn undead. Clerics of Vecna rebuke/control them. Clerics of Erythnul don't do anything with undead--they get barbarian rage instead. I'd probably give clerics of Hextor the Divine Might ability but not Rage (or maybe martial weapon proficiency and a bonus feat or two from the fighter list). My players have pretty much stayed within one small part of my campaign world though so a lot of these changes haven't been playtested.

I concede the potential for abuse with a few of the domain spells. However, I don't see it being necessarily that bad. I would think that a cleric of travel (to use your example) who is of high enough level that he can afford to burn all his third level spell slots on Fly for his companions should be able to do so. He is a priest of the god of travel, after all. Perhaps some balancing mechanism could be added. Only one domain per cleric?

Oh well, just some thoughts. I'm inclined to hear out anything that differentiates the clerics of one god from another...or, for that matter, differentiates clerics from any other spellcasting class. All too often they seem to be played as heavily armored wizards with a less offensive spell selection than as conduits between their god and its mortal followers.

Thanks for the input all!

 

[Rybaer]

What I've been thinking of doing to differentiate clerics from each other was play with the turning ability. Clerics of one faith turn undead. Clerics of Vecna rebuke/control them. Clerics of Erythnul don't do anything with undead--they get barbarian rage instead. I'd probably give clerics of Hextor the Divine Might ability but not Rage (or maybe martial weapon proficiency and a bonus feat or two from the fighter list). My players have pretty much stayed within one small part of my campaign world though so a lot of these changes haven't been playtested.

This actually sounds a lot like something presented in the Kalamar Player's Guide, I believe. I don't have it handy, but it was essentially a variety of different effects that clerics could pull off by expending a "turn undead". Each church only had access to one such power. Thanks for (unwittingly) reminding me about it.

Good input overall. Much appreciated.