D&D 4E Possible houserule for mini-less 4e combat

[Dragonblade]

When you run narrative combat in 4e, run it just like you would running an old school 1e/2e narrative combat. Describe what you are doing, use your actions appropriately and the DM adjudicates where the PCs are in relation to the monsters. There are no squares and playing old school narrative style means trusting your DM to be fair and impartial when describing the relative locations of PCs, monsters, and environmental obstacles.

While in melee combat, a PC/monster can trade movement for Tactic Points. Whenever a PC/monster trades in their movement for TPs, they don't actually move. Rather gaining TPs represents the PC/monster ducking, weaving, and essentially maneuvering around their foes using footwork, etc. to gain an advantage in combat for themselves or their allies.

Every square of movement that a PC/monster moves or forces movement can be traded to grant the party an equivalent number of Tactic Points instead of moving as follows:

Move - A PC/monster can trade one Move action for a number of TPs equal to the number of squares they can move. Trading a normal move action for TP's immediately draws an OA from every opponent they are in melee with. (Remember, you must be in melee to earn TP's.)

Shift - A PC/monster can trade every square they could normally shift for an equivalent number of TP's. No OAs.

Forced movement (pushes, pulls, and slides only) - A PC/monster can trade every square of forced movement they might normally inflict on an opponent into TPs in lieu of actually moving the opponent.

Squares of movement traded for TP's can come from any power or action that grants movement. TP's are a shared resource and all TP's generated by the PCs are put into a pool that all PC's draw from. Monsters build up their own pool.

10 TP's can be taken from the pool and spent by a single PC/monster to gain combat advantage for one round. Or 15 TP's can be spent to reroll any one missed attack roll or saving throw. Although you must be melee to earn a TP by trading in movement, any PC can spend the points earned. This could represent PCs in combat trying to maneuver around a monster to give their archer ally a better shot.

Thoughts? Any tweaks? I recognize that some PCs will try to build up TPs quickly so I didn't want to make the benefits too good, but I thought it would be a nice tradeoff when running a narrative combat where powers that provide movement aren't normally as useful due to the narrative non-grid based nature of it.

 

[Camelot]

That's a really cool idea! My only add on is to maybe lower the cost of gaining combat advantage a bit, maybe to 5 TPs. It would probably need a bit of playtesting and tweaking, but I think that it sounds like a good way to have 4e combat without minis. Thanks!

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

I guess I have to ask, what's the point?

One reason for going mini-less is because of a desire not to deal with all the fiddly bits of miniatures. This approach certainly doesn't seem like it's going to be _less_ fiddly, there's just a bunch of additional stuff to keep track of.

I mean, it looks like you still have to track who's in combat with whom, you've got another list to maintain for everyone as to how many TP=Whatever movement, and you need to keep track of how many TP each character/monster has as well. And still try to track conditions, marks, etc.

I run 4E mini-less right now and so far I haven't had a problem. I use an abstract positioning system (taken from a game called Agon by John Harper). You can see the Range Strip (which is the core of the system) here:

http://www.agon-rpg.com/range_strip.pdf

So, ranges are all relative. Someone shows up in a strip and the strip right next to them is Close. If they're in the same strip, they're in Melee. I've got a small magnetic dry erase board with lines drawn on it. Each character's name is written on a small magnet, and then I've got extras to cover foes. I can organise the Initiative order on it and at the same time have the representation needed for who's in what range. Very simple to set up, easy to explain.

Range bands are Melee, Close, Medium, Long, Extreme. I used the ranges of weapons from the PHB, so Extreme is basically max distance of a Long Bow.

Combat Advantage is determined by 2 things: Narrative and number of foes. If the narrative suggests that a foe (or character) wouldn't be aware of something or would be disadvantaged in some fashion, CA is granted. If there's 2+ on a target, CA is granted.

Push/Pull/Slide powers... there's not really a hard and fast rule here. A lot of the time, it's shoving someone around within the same Range Band. As a general rule, if someone is getting shoved around and it's granting Op Attacks, if someone is in the Range Band where an Opp Attack could occur, then they can take the Opp Attack; that's of course assuming that they can make one in the first place.

Funky terrain (like lightning that hangs out in a square or whatever) is handled mainly by narrative. If there's some sort of struggle to get someone/maneuver them into funky terrain, a simple check/opposed check is my standard approach.

I think that covers it.

Obviously there's an element of "trust", but to be honest... there's _always_ an element of trust. You trust that the GM isn't going to screw you over on all sorts of things that they can. So "trust" in the case of mini-less combat is just one more element that people need to acknowledge but not really obsess over. I personally tend to operate on the Rule of Cool sort of thing and if there's a question whether something should favor the foes or the characters, characters win hands-down.

Soooooo.... I'm not saying your system sucks, I'm just not quite sure what problem you're trying to address with it.

Of course, there's also this approach to combat:
Fluid 4e: Gridless Combat.

There's some solid ideas there, especially the Move Save. My ranges are a bit different than what's there, but so far it hasn't been a problem; if need be I can tweak 'em more to match this version later.

 

[Alex319]

As a general rule, if someone is getting shoved around and it's granting Op Attacks, if someone is in the Range Band where an Opp Attack could occur, then they can take the Opp Attack...

I thought forced movement doesn't normally provoke OAs. Does this system change that?

 

[Ahnirades]

Nice system, Dragonblade. I like its simplicity.

One additional use of TPs springs to mind. If a character or monster wishes to use environmental features against an opponent they need to pay for it. Knocking a goblin into a nearby bonfire with Tide of Iron might cost 2 TPs, for example.

 

[Ahnirades]

... and you need to keep track of how many TP each character/monster has as well.

The OP states that Tactical Points are shared by the group, so that wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Saeviomagy]

10Tps is ludicrously expensive for a scenario that basically boils down to "if there are 2 of you and one of him, you can flank".

That might be oversimplifying, but not by much: a team that wants CA can get it with relative ease. The 10TP figure you suggest would make rogues practically worthless in a fight.

In fact, the amount that it costs to get CA will probably end up being so low as to make it not worth tracking TP.

 

[Stalker0]

The core system seems simple and elegant. I agree with others that the number may need to be tweaked a bit...as they often do, but the core foundation looks like a good start.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

I thought forced movement doesn't normally provoke OAs. Does this system change that?

No, I put that note in for a couple of reasons.

1. I'm still learning the rules and don't have all the errata memorized.
2. WotC loves making rules like "forced movement doesn't provoke OAs" and then making some class that can or providing some feat that lets you. Since I don't own all the books, I'm covering the distinct possibility that it could be situationally allowed.

 

[Dragonblade]

I thought forced movement doesn't normally provoke OAs. Does this system change that?

Right, forced movement does not provoke OAs. However, normally using a move action to move without shifting does provoke OAs. Since most PCs in an abstract melee combat are going to have move actions burning a hole in their pocket, or might have powers that require a move action, I wanted my system to allow them to use those actions without them feeling like taking those powers was a waste.

However, just like in core 4e grid based combat, there is a cost. You get to move a lot of squares, or in my system earn a lot of TPs, but just like in normal 4e, you draw OAs. Which if the monster takes them can allow other players to then get to use their triggered powers and abilities that key off monster OAs.

Mostly, I still like to break out the grid for a large set piece battle, but when running an impromptu spur of the moment combat, I wanted something quick and dirty. I wanted a system where the players still felt like their movement powers provided them with an advantage even though combat was much more abstract and narrative.