Pathfinder 1E Potion bottles....Skinny or Flask shaped?

[MarkB]

Mass production in terms of factory production lines is relatively new, but the concept of producing large quantities of near-identical goods has been around for a lot longer, especially for military gear.

Uniforms, weapons, armour, tents, bedrolls, utensils, supply crates - in almost any formal army these are standardised and produced in great quantities, and that was true as far back as Roman and even pre-Roman times.

So the concept is well within reach, and the practice was used when there was sufficient necessity. With magic to make it easy in practice, it's not going to require any massive conceptual leap to get people doing it commercially.

 

[N'raac]

The entire concept of sprue manufacturing is a very modern post WW II process with the advent of plastics and injection molding. I know this is fantasy, but only Eberron type settings presume a post industrial age. Even the concept of mass production is a rather new concept in our world. Not sure it was a good one either, but that is another subject. Too many gamers want to mix 21st tech and moralities upon a world setting that was based on a medieval society and technology level. While Golaron is somewhat different, it is not that different in that regard.

If we had magic in medieval (or Roman) times, how would our world have developed?

"21st century morality" includes "respect for life is good", gender and racial (much less species) equality, "slavery is evil", and "freedom of religion", among other concepts that most standard fantasy games emulate. A currency system that actually allows for standardized trade is no older than mass production (especially of military goods), and a "realistic" medieval society would be much more restrictive on the bearing of arms, among other issues. A common language? Ridiculous! Oh, and your characters need to swear fealty to the King - or it's Off With Their Heads!

 

[delericho]

A leftover broken spell from 3.5 that is too easily abused. I do not allow the spell.

Fair enough, but then we're into the realm of house rules.

Besides, if you go to a traditional glass-blower, and asked him to make 500 small glass bottles for you, I bet he'd make 500 that were all pretty much the same. They wouldn't be identical, certainly not to the standards of machine-made mass-produced items, but they'd all be clearly similar. It's just much more efficient to work that way, even when working by hand.

I am not going to allow you to use fabricate to craft the masterwork weapon needed for your magic sword. You are still going to either have to craft one or have it done.

Eh, the spell already has that covered: "You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship." (from the 3.5e SRD - they might have removed that clause in Pathfinder.)

 

[N'raac]

Same clause is in the Pathfinder version. There is a Pathfinder spell, Masterwork Transformation, that converts an ordinary object into a Masterwork item, but it requires reagents with a cost equal to the purchase price of a masterwork version of the item (ie the MW premium of 300 gp for a weapon). So it's less expensive to hire a master craftsman (since the wizard presumably won't work for free).

 

[brvheart]

If we had magic in medieval (or Roman) times, how would our world have developed?

"21st century morality" includes "respect for life is good", gender and racial (much less species) equality, "slavery is evil", and "freedom of religion", among other concepts that most standard fantasy games emulate. A currency system that actually allows for standardized trade is no older than mass production (especially of military goods), and a "realistic" medieval society would be much more restrictive on the bearing of arms, among other issues. A common language? Ridiculous! Oh, and your characters need to swear fealty to the King - or it's Off With Their Heads!

Respect for life is good? A very lawful good or at minimum good concept. And if you are in an evil kingdom like Cheliax?

Gender, racial and species equality is only in the game due to the producers wishing to stay PC, but in reality, it is a universal concept? Dwarves still don't like elves, orcs and goblins hate them, etc. Slavery is still rampant in Golaron.

Most nations have their own coinage systems and it is only a game convenience that we call them gold pieces, silver, etc. This was never a restraint of trade even in roman times.

If your king is evil you better swear fealty and even in good kingdoms even passively not supporting the powers at be makes for a short life.

As for magic in Roman times, it is said that when Moses turned his staff into a snake, the pharaohs priests were able to do the same. Who is to say we didn't?

A common language? Again a game convenience, but French was long considered the universal language of diplomacy prior to English.

Not sure why you would want 500 small bottles, but I am sure a good sized glass blower could handle the order in a relative short period and they would be similar enough in game terms. And if you are making the proper Craft checks, then you are not bypassing that step. I have seen many on here and the Paizo forum that do. It is mostly a question of feel rather than structure as to how it affects the game as I see it. Magic should be a compliment to the existing world, not a replacement, but YMMV.

 

[N'raac]

Respect for life is good? A very lawful good or at minimum good concept. And if you are in an evil kingdom like Cheliax?

Good is explicitly defined as incorporating respect for life.

Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings.

Thus, good characters have respect for even the Evil rules of Cheliax. Compare to the respect for life demonstrated by propaganda against the Japanese in WW II, much less any medieval respect for the life of, say, the Saracens by the Christians or vice versa, or the Catholics for the Protestants, etc. etc. ad infinitum.

Gender, racial and species equality is only in the game due to the producers wishing to stay PC, but in reality, it is a universal concept? Dwarves still don't like elves, orcs and goblins hate them, etc.

Orcs and goblins are evil, so they can be OK with inequality. Try being a Jew in renaissance Venice, or an Indian in colonial Britain. Women? Own property? Don't be ridiculous! They are certainly not soldiers, nor priests, nor merchants, in medieval (or even much more recent) times. But they don't seem at all hindered in Golarian.

Slavery is still rampant in Golaron.

Not in those cultures presented as "good".

Most nations have their own coinage systems and it is only a game convenience that we call them gold pieces, silver, etc. This was never a restraint of trade even in roman times.

Barter was the main trade in Roman times to much later eras. Knowing that a Longsword can be had for 15 gp, and not one coppere more or less, wherever one may travel seems decidedly non-medieval to me. For that matter, the fact that all longswords are more or less identical seems a lot like that mass production - why aren't some better balanced (bonus to hit), but less weighty (less damage), while others are heavier, perhaps unwieldy (maybe a penalty to hit, or a slower attack) but more damaging when they connect? The value of precious metal was by no means universal in medieval times.

If your king is evil you better swear fealty and even in good kingdoms even passively not supporting the powers at be makes for a short life.

I see this arise in precious few campaigns.

As for magic in Roman times, it is said that when Moses turned his staff into a snake, the pharaohs priests were able to do the same. Who is to say we didn't?

If you wish to provide evidence of the existence of magic in our world, by all means be my guest!

A common language? Again a game convenience, but French was long considered the universal language of diplomacy prior to English.

But it was not spoken universally, was it? It was simply the language in which, by convention, diplomatic articles were written. See http://www.legallanguage.com/legal-articles/language-of-diplomacy/ for a brief discussion of the French language in medieval times. The fact it was used by the upper classes in no way makes it universal for communication, like the game convenience of common.

Similar game conveniences include universal currency, and universal prices, and universally available products that, if not able to be mass produced, nevertheless are as available as mass produced items in the 21st century.

What's the price of 500 glass vials or flasks? I suspect less than the cost of a wizard casting a 5th level spell - the wizard's fee expectations keep the craftsmen in business.

 

[Nytmare]

I'm in the boat with all of them being different, and many of them not even being potions or in glass bottles. I tend to do a lot of wooden, bamboo, and gourd flasks, depending on where the characters pick them up.

 

[brvheart]

RAW the cost of 500 vials is 500 GP. It costs 450 GP plus the material cost to have someone cast the spell, say 50% of that or 700 GP. The rest of this is only game mechanics put into the game for convenience, but the discussion has long gone off topic. Now why you would want 500 vials in the first place I don't know unless you are starting up a cure light wounds potion business! I haven't run many campaigns where the party ever used a 100 potions total over the entire campaign and most of those were found.

 

[MarkB]

RAW the cost of 500 vials is 500 GP. It costs 450 GP plus the material cost to have someone cast the spell, say 50% of that or 700 GP. The rest of this is only game mechanics put into the game for convenience, but the discussion has long gone off topic. Now why you would want 500 vials in the first place I don't know unless you are starting up a cure light wounds potion business! I haven't run many campaigns where the party ever used a 100 potions total over the entire campaign and most of those were found.

Well, yes, the discussion has largely been about selling potions as a business. 500 potion bottles for a large city temple might not even last out the week.

Even for a smaller business, whilst it's a fair up-front investment, potion bottles don't go off, so even if you're only selling 5-10 per week, you can set aside a small part of your turnover so that you have enough for the periodic restocking costs.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

A mix of all sorts of different sizes and shapes, much like perfumes are available in a wide range of bottles in our world. (And that's even with the advantage of our modern methods of mass-production. I don't envisage D&D adventures, even those in Eberron, having the advantage of those techniques.)

Pretty much this.

Plus, many "potions" in my game aren't actually in bottles at all - you get enchanted fruits, biscuits, and many other small edible items; you get tokens and tags that need to be snapped to take effect; you get pouches of powders...

My Geomancer in one campaign has taken all "plant related" Drift effects from that class- he was partially inspired by DC Comics' Swamp Thing during the initial stages of him discovering his powers as a "plant elemental."

And like that character, the healing potions he creates (via "Brew Potion") are fruits he grows from his body...