Pounce Ability?

[Sithobi1]

If someone has the Pounce ability, and charges, I see these possible answers to what happens:
1.Full attack, all at +2
2.Full attack, 1st attack is at +2
3.1 melee attack at +2, then Full attack
4.1 melee attack at +2, then Full attack at +2
I am specifically asking with respect to Psionic Lion's Charge.
Thanks.

 

[DM_Matt]

If someone has the Pounce ability, and charges, I see these possible answers to what happens:
1.Full attack, all at +2
2.Full attack, 1st attack is at +2
3.1 melee attack at +2, then Full attack
4.1 melee attack at +2, then Full attack at +2
I am specifically asking with respect to Psionic Lion's Charge.
Thanks.

#1. The bonuses and penalties for charging last until your next action, and I don't see why you would get another attack on top of your regular full attack.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

#3.

Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

CHARGE

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.

You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll. and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

If you charge, a single attack with a +2 bonus is included in the charge action.

The Pounce ability allows you to full attack *after* you charge (lit., "can follow with a full attack").

Therefore, you charge, and make your one allowed attack, which gets a +2 bonus.

You then are allowed a full attack, which does not get any bonus.

EDIT:

If, instead, the Pounce ability read:

Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it may make a full attack instead of a single attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

then #1 would be correct.

 

[sullivan]

#1. The bonuses and penalties for charging last until your next action, and I don't see why you would get another attack on top of your regular full attack.

Because of poor wording? It says you get a full attack after the charge. In 3.5 a Charge includes the movement and the attack. Taken literally you move and attack (as per a charge), and then get a Full attack. However i think as a DM i'd pull the reigns on an already powerful ability and only allow the attacks to total what you'd normally get in a Full Attack. I also don't see anything that says you get a +2 to hit till your next turn, only that the attack as part of the charge get it.

So I'm saying strictly RAW 3., but no way I'd ever rule it that way. Instead 2.

P.S. Not getting the +2 for extra attacks also comes into play if a Hasted creature charges as you could make a second attack even without the Pounce ability.

EDIT: The reason I give for the strictly RAW being too powerful to make sense, besides the obvious damage potential, is that it effectively allows the creature the effects of 2 Full Actions within the round. That is quite powerful. The only other way I can think of to get that sort of effect including movement is combining Charge with Greater Cleave/Cleave and Haste. Of course YMMV.

 

[Hypersmurf]

3.1 melee attack at +2, then Full attack

This one fits closest with the RAW. It's possibly not the intention, but it's what it says.

CHARGE
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll, and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

A Charge is a move plus a single attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack. You take a -2 penalty to AC until your next turn. (Notice that the bonus applies to 'the attack', not until your next turn like the penalty.)

Psionic Lion’s Charge
You gain the powerful charging ability of a lion. When you charge, you can make a full attack in the same round.

So when you charge (a move plus a single attack with a +2 bonus), you can make a full attack in the same round. That exactly describes your option 3.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

P.S. Not getting the +2 for extra attacks also comes into play if a Hasted creature charges as you could make a second attack even without the Pounce ability.

No, you couldn't.

Haste
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding.

If you're Hasted and charging, you're not making a full attack action. No second attack.

EDIT: The reason I give for the strictly RAW being too powerful to make sense, besides the obvious damage potential, is that it effectively allows the creature the effects of 2 Full Actions within the round. That is quite powerful. The only other way I can think of to get that sort of effect including movement is combining Greater Cleave/Cleave and Haste. Of course YMMV.

Again, combining Haste with movement generally doesn't work, because unless you're taking the full attack action, Haste gives no extra attack.

If you rule that the full attack replaces the single attack of the charge, shouldn't every attack qualify for the +2? And the double damage from Spirited Charge? And the +2d6 from Rhino Hide armor? And... and... and...?

I'm quite happy to go with #3 (as written) rather than replacing the single attack with the full attack... because I see option 1 as too powerful. (As well as not being what's written.)

-Hyp.

 

[sullivan]

No, you couldn't.

Haste
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding.

If you're Hasted and charging, you're not making a full attack action. No second attack.

Ah I see what you mean there. Since Charge as a full action that is an attack (different but similar) I allow Haste to give an attack. But true that that isn't quite RAW. So in effect #3 is the only way to give the effects of 2 Full acitons including movement? Toss in Cleave/Greater Cleave and Haste (you are getting a Full Attack after all) on top of that and you've got yourself one mean pussy cat.

If you rule that the full attack replaces the single attack of the charge, shouldn't every attack qualify for the +2? And the double damage from Spirited Charge? And the +2d6 from Rhino Hide armor? And... and... and...?

No, because the Full Attack isn't part of the charge. It's separate, sortof. Logically it works in my mind because the charge energy went into the initial attack, and those extra attacks are made from a standstill like a normal Full Attack. It's not RAW anyway (even if it might have been intended to be done that way), so while I'm making up rulings to balance things out and suspend the belief I might as well make them up in a way that makes sense translating from rules mechanics to cinematics.

I'm quite happy to go with #3 (as written) rather than replacing the single attack with the full attack... because I see option 1 as too powerful. (As well as not being what's written.)

I just see them both as overly powerful given how the CR shakes out for the creatures that have it. But that is a subjective thing.

 

[silentspace]

#3.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

#1. The bonuses and penalties for charging last until your next action, and I don't see why you would get another attack on top of your regular full attack.

Actually, the bonus for charging is good only for your next attack, though the penalties last until your next turn.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Ah I see what you mean there. Since Charge as a full action that is an attack (different but similar) I allow Haste to give an attack. But true that that isn't quite RAW.

It's not at all RAW There's a big difference between a full attack action and a charge action

No, because the Full Attack isn't part of the charge. It's separate, sortof.

So... you charge and make one attack, and then make a separate full attack, apart from one attack that would normally be in a full attack but isn't, because it was in the charge instead?

As long as we're clear

-Hyp.