Power and Responsibility

[Umbran]

And what's the point of reaching levels of 20 or higher if you can't make a difference?

As if everybody's game has to have the same point? Shall we start a list?

1)Killing even bigger things, and taking their even neater stuff.

2)The more complex tactical play higher levels entails.

3)Being able to say, finally, that you had a character reach level 20 without dying.

 

[S'mon]

I'm with you Jurgen, I find apolitical high-level games incredibly boring. I dislike that this seems to be the default approach in 3e, judging by the Adventure Paths.

 

[buzz]

How often keep those ever-higher scaling challenges appearing, though?

Every single session, at least in my Monday game. We've been traveling the astral plane hunting titans in our search to free a paladin's soul. Success will save the known world from deific chaos. Does that count?

Even the planes aside, take a look at the Monster Manuals. Plenty of foes for high-level PCs. Hello, dragons! No in-setting SOD needed.

IMO, what you're describing does sound like it would make for a cool campaign. D&D just ain't about that, though. It's about killing things and taking their stuff. Ergo, I would not be surprised that you tend to see high-level campaigns that are mostly about killing things and taking their stuff, just like when they were low-level campaigns.

For more politics, maybe look at games like Reign or Burning Wheel. Or check out some of the old Birthright stuff for 2e.

 

[Slife]

Oh, dark lord Elmer? OK, we subdue him and force a helm of opposite alignment on and off of his head. The wizard'll detect magic until the helm is nonmagical. Goodbye, Light Lord Elmer. Hope you can fix the mess you've made of the kingdom. We're off to save the multiverse now.

 

[Uzzy]

I quite like political high level play, though it really depends on what people want from their game. Some people will enjoy that, other's will be quite happy with bigger and badder monsters to slay. D&D can fit them all in.

The 'Concerns of the Mighty' sidebar in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting discuss this very issue, why good aligned high level characters may choose not to attempt sweeping changes to the world, toppling tyrants here there and everywhere. It's a good read, if you enjoy the political high level play.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

To be honest, to me this sounds like the PCs can't make a difference after all.

And what's the point of reaching levels of 20 or higher if you can't make a difference?

Why do Good gods allow tyrants to stand? They truly have the power to change the world and yet they don't. Why? Because the Evil gods will respond in kind.

I think the same idea can apply to PCs. They don't take out the little 8th level Aristocrat tyrant of a kingdom because they are busy foiling the plans of high level bad guys who are bent on bringing chaos and destruction to the good kingdoms.

 

[cougent]

To be honest, to me this sounds like the PCs can't make a difference after all.

And what's the point of reaching levels of 20 or higher if you can't make a difference?

They can make a difference, but they are not the only force that can make that difference, so in the end whatever difference they make can be equalized.

So they go and take out a tyrannical dictator and free his enslaved nation, but that enslaved nation was being used as a labor source for some other evil epic group, so now they need a new labor force and being epic as they are they just go find a new target nation and enslve them. Now, the DM did not forbid or stop the PC's from doing exactly what they wanted to do so they were able to affect and change the world. But the status quo was reestablished and in the end and on the universal scale all is the same.

It almost seems like you have made an unspoken assumption that your group of epic PC's are the only power in this world capable of such changes. If they are, then yes they can make unequivocal changes that will not be reversed (this assumes no deity intervention as well). But if they are NOT the only epics then anything they do can be undone by other epics, or by any nosy deity as well.

I actually like the concept of political intrigue you have brought forth, but I think it would prove far more entangled and complex than simply having the epics go eliminate all dictators of all nations and call it a day. Whether they then continue to govern and safeguard said places or not... the other side is not going to just sit idly by and let your group do this without a challenge. Maybe a direct challenge, maybe subterfuge, maybe covert, maybe even an epic assination in your sleep; but they will do something in a realistic world.

 

[howandwhy99]

My point is that once the PCs become powerful enough to defeat whole armies by themselves, they should think in grander terms than just slaying bigger monsters. They have the power to shape the world for good or ill - so at the very least they need to come up with good explanations for why they aren't doing just that.

My thinking has been, as Players and DMs build their games up from level 1, they inevitably create their own game. By the time they are 10th (20th)(soon 30th) level they will have a game nearly unlike anyone else's. I don't mean only the world or characters, but also the play and the rules. Most everything will have been refined to their own joint sensibilities for what they want out of the game. This can't be done beforehand. Not even for the same group starting over. To stay interesting something new will become the focus.

If you look at successful high level games like PirateCat's or Sepulchrave's or Blackdirge or any other long-lasting game, they are each highly unique. In game designing terms, they probably wouldn't even be thought of as the same game. Some folks may even degrade D&D as dysfunctional because the "core" of the game alters for every group who plays it. I disagree. It can't be a singular end summarized in one sentence or it stops being D&D. However, I do recognize the challenge to create a game which allows each group to find their own "sweet spot".

If your high level game isn't working well, ask your players what they want out of a high level game. Why are they even playing it? Better yet, simply play the game and let them choose in character.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Why do Good gods allow tyrants to stand? They truly have the power to change the world and yet they don't. Why? Because the Evil gods will respond in kind.

Or perhaps because they are incapable of acting in the world without their followers - or perhaps they aren't able to act directly at all (see Eberron, for example).

However, the PCs are still mortals. And permitting them less power to influence the shape of nations than a little 8th level Aristocrat tyrant just doesn't make sense. The PCs don't live forever - but when they do live, they should be allowed to shine.

I think the same idea can apply to PCs. They don't take out the little 8th level Aristocrat tyrant of a kingdom because they are busy foiling the plans of high level bad guys who are bent on bringing chaos and destruction to the good kingdoms.

Why is it that only Evil is capable of planning ahead? Why can't the Good Guys make plans, too?

 

[danzig138]

but when they do live, they should be allowed to shine.

Who is saying they can't shine? You sound like you want others to polish their shiny rocks the same way as yours, and you seem to be moving around the repeated obvious point - maybe the poeple playing don't want to do it.

Maybe the super-powerful good and wise characters are wise enough to know that they aren't the ones for the job of running the country. I don't recall anything about being good that absolutely demands you go out of your way to topple evil tyrants. Maybe the socio-political situation is such that toppling Tyrant Bob would cause some kind of domino reaction that brings the entire realm to world war? Maybe they really do have more important things to do. Maybe they aren't playing Exalted.

Maybe if they were playing Exalted, and they had to run a realm, they'd moan about not getting to go smack enough monsters because they're burdened by to much responsibility. Maybe, in more people's game than you know of, the high-level characters do go make that kind of difference, and your basing your question on an unfounded assumption.

Hrm. . . I think I just paraphrased all of the good answers you've already received.