D&D 3E/3.5 Power Attack Fix in 3.5

[airwalkrr]

Can someone explain to me why 3.5 adjusted Power Attack in the way that they did? Did it not work? Did it decrease average hit damage because the hit chance decrease over-compensated for the increased damage? (Anyone do a power attack table that gives a math answer to these questions?) Was it almost always better to take something that increased hit chance? If these were issues, did they fix them correctly or did they super-power it?

I once calculated this out. In the 3e days, PA was rarely ever beneficial from a statistical point of view. I did a sample of typical 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level characters (not min/maxed) and measured them up against a few common foes from the MM fo their level. In most cases, PA was optimal at between -1 and -2. In a few isolated cases (usually oozes and animals), PA was optimal at between -5 and -10. However, one thing my analysis did not account for was that fighting characters were likely to be receiving other bonuses to hit besides that of their equipment and abilities. Bardic music, bull's strength, bless, prayer, heroes' feast, flanking, or tripped, stunned, or held opponents, etc. can make hitting easier and PA more beneficial. I imagine with enough bonuses to hit, PA becomes optimal at higher penalties to hit. However, before such bonuses are factored in, PA was mathematically worthless against many opponents. Maybe that was the point (i.e. PA was only supposed to be useful under certain conditions). Maybe not. Either way, the 3.5 development team must have decided that it was not the point because they decided to make it better.

In 3.5, I did a similar, although more limited analysis with only 5th and 10th level characters. PA is now useful for two-handed fighters, but just as worthless for one-handed fighters. PA is often useful in the -3 to -4 range, a +6 to +8 to damage against most opponents given a reasonably competent fighting character build. There are now also far more opportunities where using PA to maximal effect is mathematically advantageous.

PA in 3.5 is one of the proud nails as far as I am concerned. I agree it was only marginally useful in 3e, but that single rule change (along with floaty shield) has created a huge paradigm shift in the way fighting characters are built. The only builds that are seen as effective these days are two-handed weapon wielders, and it is all due to the PA change. I recommend that DMs fix it for their own campaigns. The 1.5 fix is highly recommended.

 

[Stalker0]

Problem with all of those "statistical analsysis" is they are assuming straight out combat conditions. If you have 3 attacks, PA isn't that great. If your charging and get one attack, its quite nice. If your fighting high DR, its better to power attack. If your breaking things, its better to Power Attack.

Sometimes, people assuming PA is a feat that should be used all the time. Its not. Its just fine 1:1 imo, in enough situations to be very useful.

 

[Someone]

True, but notice how it was irrelevant what weapon you used when attacking objects when you had PA and your BAB was high enough in 3.0. 3.5 nerfed the users that got most from the feat - characters using weapon without high average damages, who used Power attack consistently. Now two handers will probably want the feat, but there's no reason to use it always - against certain enemies and some situations, like a charge, certainly not always unless you're roleplaying your character that way. Seeing that, I'd say the feat has actually been nerfed in 3.5.

Two handed style is good because you need very few feats to get most of it, compared with two weapon fighting.

 

[wildstarsreach]

My view is that power attack is like adding strength damage. for single hand weapons it is 1:1. Your strength on a 2 handed weapon is x1.5. Why is power attack 2:1 with 2 handed instead of 1.5:1. That would go a long way to fixing some problems especially with some combos out there.

 

[Stalker0]

Two handed style is good because you need very few feats to get most of it, compared with two weapon fighting.

There's other reasons why THF is good compared to TWF. First of all, you have a penalty to hit with TWF. Second, your using a big and small weapon or your suffering an even bigger penalty to hit. THF has a bonus to disarm and sunder rolls, TWF has a penalty with the off-hand weapon.

THF gets x1.5 on str, TWF only gets that if the HIT with both attacks. THF requires no feats, TWF at least 1. THF is much better vs DR. THF only requires throwing magic at one weapon, TWF requires throwing it at two (although sometimes this can be advantage).

People talk about power attack being better for TWF users in 3.0, but that advantage was limited. TWF users took a -2 to attacks rolls overall and gained a +2 to damage IF THEY HIT. That's was always the catch. And Power Attack helped the finesse users have a chance vs DR, while the THF style was already leagues better at dealing with it. And let's not forget that PA does have a str 13+ requirement. Painfully easy for big sword users, but when your trying to max out dex for a finesse fighter its more of a problem.

PA was fine in 3.0, sword/board, TWF, and THF all got some use out of it, but no one really got more than anyone else, and THF already had enough advantages to start.

 

[RigaMortus2]

THF requires no feats, TWF at least 1.

TWF does not require a feat... Of course, you'll be suffering major penalities to hit, but it certainly isn't required

 

[Henry]

TWF does not require a feat... Of course, you'll be suffering major penalities to hit, but it certainly isn't required

It's also not required that you be steering your car from the driver's seat, too, but it kinda helps.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Why is power attack 2:1 with 2 handed instead of 1.5:1.

One of the developers explained this about the time that 3.5 came out. Apparently, that was their original plan.

Str bonus is relatively constant, so you can do your multiplication by 1.5 ahead of time and have it written down.

But Power Attack can change from round to round, and apparently multiplying by 1.5 on-the-fly is too hard, but multiplying by 2 is easy, so they changed their plan for PA from 1.5 to 2.

-Hyp.