Power " Invitation to Defeat " unclear

[Inge Tietz]

Hi Gamers,

I'm playing an Ardent and recently came across the power called "Invitation to Defeat" in the Psionic Powers ...
I don't understand how it actually works in process.

Here's the text:
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Daily + Psionic, Psychic, Weapon
Standard Action Close burst 5

Target: Each enemy in burst

Attack: Charisma vs. Will

Hit: You pull the target 5 squares. Any target pulled to a square adjacent to you is weakened (save ends).

Effect: Until the end of your next turn, enemies are weakened while they are adjacent to you. In addition, until the end of your next turn, any enemy that takes damage while adjacent to you also takes psychic damage equal to your Charisma modifier.

Sustain Minor: The effect persists.
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Is there a save against the "effect" at all? Since the effect is not indented, it doesn't look like "effect" and "hit" belong together. It rather looks like there's a save for the "hit" consequence, but not for the "effect" consequence of the power ...

And EVEN IF there's a save against the effect:
What happens if I spend the minor action? Does it provoke new saves at the end of the round for all enemies in burst 1?

 

[Garthanos]

The effect is not dependent on a hit and does not mention any explicit save basically to avoid it enemies can move out of the area adjacent to the Ardent on their turns.

It's an encouragement to not stay next to the Ardent even if it misses.

 

[Inge Tietz]

And what about the save for those being pulled? What happens to them in the second round if I spend a minor? Are they subjected to weakness again, although they might have saved successfully at the end of round 1?
That's especially strange, if my initiative is higher than theirs and I spend the minor before the successful save can take an effect for them ...
And does every enemy around me have to save each round again, until I cannot spend a minor anymore or until they leave the burst? Or is one successful save enough for the individual?

 

[Garthanos]

And what about the save for those being pulled?

There is no explicit save against being pulled your defense against it is will defense
and the separate "weaken effect" does not offer a save and affects anyone who is next to you as long as you maintain it.

The separate weakening effect is ongoing and affects every enemy next to you, if they want to avoid it they move.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Is there a save against the "effect" at all? It rather looks like there's a save for the "hit" consequence
And EVEN IF there's a save against the effect:
What happens if I spend the minor action? Does it provoke new saves at the end of the round for all enemies in burst 1?

And what about the save for those being pulled?

Hi Inge!

You are experiencing a very typical moment of cognitive dissonance as someone who has played D&D before and is trying to understand something in 4e that would be very simple, if only you hadn't. ;(

In essence, there are no "saves" in 4e. All attacks are resolved with attack rolls, by the attacker, including magical attacks. To really grok that, you have to understand that in all other versions of D&D, physical attacks use a roll by the attacker to see if the defender isn't affected by them, but magic and poison (among other things), instead require a roll from the defender to see if he is affected by them. Both attacks and saves are d20 rolls that deliver a pass/fail result, and are thus mathematically equivalent, so they are redundant. Saving throws have no reason to exist, they are a needless complication to the game.

4e simplified the game by making all attacks resolved by the attacker rolling an attack roll vs a defense.

What 4e calls a 'save' (in the notation 'save ends') is really a randomized durration that's checked each turn, at the end of the victim's turn. Unlike an attack roll, the DC is fixed at 10. Sometimes a save is modified. But the idea is simply that, at the end of your turn, each effect you're under that a save can end, you roll a d20 vs DC 10 to see if it stops affecting you.

So, what the above power does is attack every enemy within 5 of you and pull them if you hit. If the pull results in any of them being adjacent to you, those enemies are weakened, and the weakened condition lasts until they make that DC 10 check at the ends of their turns.

Separate from that you start up an effect that surrounds you, in the squares adjacent, that makes enemies in it weakened and take extra damage. All they have to do to escape the effect is not stand next to you! No saves required (not even the 4e badly-miss-named random durration 'saves'). Each round you can use your minor action to keep that effect going. Once you fail to do so for whatever reason, it ends. So, again, 'sustain' is just a durration mechanic, a durration under your control, instead of a random one (like 'save ends') or a fixed one (like 'end of next turn' or 'end of the encounter').

 

[Garthanos]

Hi Inge!

You are experiencing a very typical moment of cognitive dissonance as someone who has played D&D before and is trying to understand something in 4e that would be very simple, if only you hadn't. ;( .

I was having trouble understanding how it could be complicated or hard to understand like "almost" all powers its pretty darn clear.

 

[Garthanos]

This ability might reflavor nicely to a Martial ability which taunts enemies into rushing into a disarm move and which puts one into a stance where they disarm and/or interferes actively with attacks of all adjacent enemies . It is a wonderful come an get it for a Leader type with a touch of defender to him this variant would be for a Warlord.

Perhaps for the Bard it would be a an Arcane power and called Seduction Dance LOL the attacks are suppressed due to a pacification aura.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

And what about the save for those being pulled? What happens to them in the second round if I spend a minor? Are they subjected to weakness again, although they might have saved successfully at the end of round 1?
That's especially strange, if my initiative is higher than theirs and I spend the minor before the successful save can take an effect for them ...
And does every enemy around me have to save each round again, until I cannot spend a minor anymore or until they leave the burst? Or is one successful save enough for the individual?

OK, its complicated. There are TWO independent weakening effects here. One applies to anyone who was hit and then pulled adjacent to you, which has a (save ends) attached to it. It does NOT have a condition of remaining adjacent, nor does it require any sustainment. It simply continues until the enemy saves, then it ends. It could potentially continue for the whole encounter.

The SECOND weakening condition applies automatically to an enemy adjacent to you, regardless of if they were targeted or not, nor how they got there. Note that this effect WILL also count on those initially subject to the first weakening condition (but conditions don't stack). This one requires sustaining and if they stop being adjacent then it INSTANTLY stops applying, likewise if you don't sustain it on your next turn. In theory this effect could also persist for the whole rest of the encounter, although it is doubtful enemies will sit around and endure it.

I'd note that an enemy moving away from you might be subject to an OA. One nasty idea would be to prevent shifting out of the effect. This could be accomplished by pulling the enemy adjacent into difficult terrain, knocking them prone, etc. It could also be combined with polearm shenanigans I'm sure, though I'm not really up on all the details of what you would want to do there.

Anyway, the power is only confusing in that it creates two identical effects with different ending conditions, which will both probably hit the same enemies.

 

[Garthanos]

Anyway, the power is only confusing in that it creates two identical effects with different ending conditions, which will both probably hit the same enemies.

The orignal post seemed to be just INSISTING the secondary "effect" MUST have a save.

 

[Garthanos]

This ability might reflavor nicely to a Martial ability which taunts enemies into rushing into a disarm move and which puts one into a stance where they disarm and/or interferes actively with attacks of all adjacent enemies . It is a wonderful come an get it for a Leader type with a touch of defender to him this variant would be for a Warlord.

Perhaps for the Bard it would be a an Arcane power and called Seduction Dance LOL the attacks are suppressed due to a pacification aura.

Its a much larger area effect than come and get it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The orignal post seemed to be just INSISTING the secondary "effect" MUST have a save.

I think, as [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] pointed out, that he was just a little confused about there being 2 effects. If you are used to reading the sort of muddy subjective descriptions of spell effects in games like AD&D, 3.x, and 5e, then you what you do is you sort of squint and try to get the 'gist' of what is being said and then figure out the questions in play somehow. AD&D is a game which is particularly like this, nothing in it actually just makes sense when you try to play it out at the table. You always have to step back and invent the actual mechanics from the ambiguous words. So when you come to 4e and you read a power, and you're used to playing some other D&D, you just automatically try to mentally construct some something in your head that 'sort of matches' with the gist of the words. But with 4e you don't need to do that. Instead if you literally read the words rote and don't add even the smallest bit of interpretation to them beyond "OK, this is what happens when X" then it is all just clear. You play it and the game 'just works'. That's the case with this particular power, it isn't actually unclear, the OP was simply reading too much into it. He just needs to literally interpret the power exactly as the power block interpretation rules in PHB1 state. I think he was about 95% of the way there actually. He just needed some confirmation that he was on the right track.

 

[Garthanos]

Inspired by the the Ardent power - Invitation to Defeat a mass Taunt with a disarm maneuver...

 

[Tony Vargas]

Inspired by the the Ardent power - Invitation to Defeat a mass Taunt with a disarm maneuver...

View attachment 98929

Y'know, Exorcism of Steel is meant as a disarm maneuver, and is much higher level... of course it's a defender power.

 

[Garthanos]

Y'know, Exorcism of Steel is meant as a disarm maneuver, and is much higher level... of course it's a defender power.

There are big conversations about disarming effects in genre.

That power is ummmm a yeh. In game terms I think EoS is poorly formulated leaving too much ambiguity ie exactly what does removing a Goblins sword do to him per raw? does he have a back up blade almost as good? What if the enemy isnt using a weapon? Its basically a til end of encounter single target once per encounter effect which does what exactly?

Disarmed in action movies is more accurately portrayed by the momentary effects of 4e powers for which a number of powers/effects might do... Unless you have a minion or otherwise nearly defeated (bloodied enemy) it is never likely to be the absolute and permanent effect of the EoS stolen weapon.

We could use some skill/utility power to tie into that so that one could snag that intimidate effect (where you end the fight foot on blade knife at throat enemy cowed) using Athletics or Thievery (or a martial cantrip -- specifically affecting only that use of intimidate)

In REALITY if someone can do that EoS to you they have you so totally out classed you might as well be zero hit points and defeated we allow for some other effects in game in order to support tropes not realism.

For this reason presenting many disarms with momentary effects is useful and appropriate even if you are using the intimidate/zero hit point option.

Other possible momentary effects you see in the movies for a significant enemy being disarmed, they are forced to dive after/or kneel to retrieve their weapon.

Perhaps use a dazed effect so the enemy is bobbling their weapon and loses most of their actions trying to get it under control.

 

[Garthanos]

OK call that a thread divergence

 

[Tony Vargas]

Disarmed in action movies is more accurately portrayed by the momentary effects of 4e powers for which a number of powers/effects might do... Unless you have a minion or otherwise nearly defeated (bloodied enemy) it is never likely to be the absolute and permanent effect of the EoS stolen weapon.
We could use some skill/utility power to tie into that so that one could snag that intimidate effect (where you end the fight foot on blade knife at throat enemy cowed) using Athletics or Thievery (or a martial cantrip -- specifically affecting only that use of intimidate)

That sounds like a good thing to leverage. I guess Thievery for the DEX-based martial or Athletics for the STR types could be subbed for Intimidate - presumably a skill keying off your primary is going to be higher than Intimidate.

That'd be consistent with some Utility powers, actually, swapping your best skill in for another has several precedents. Or it could be appended to an attack power: resolve attack, if the enemy is bloodied after the attack (or was before), make the Intimidate (or sub Athletics or Thievery depending on which class has the power), to force it to surrender.

Other possible momentary effects you see in the movies for a significant enemy being disarmed, they are forced to dive after/or kneel to retrieve their weapon.
Perhaps use a dazed effect so the enemy is bobbling their weapon and loses most of their actions trying to get it under control.

Or weakened (se), aftereffect: prone?

 

[Garthanos]

That'd be consistent with some Utility powers, actually, swapping your best skill in for another has several precedents.

I am starting a new thread for this dude there is a lot going on.

 

[Garthanos]

A taunt which just caused your enemy to not be able to take an opportunity attack against your ally might be very useful. It would be a good distraction effect. To help enable escape... if it worked on multiple opponents similar to how an intimidation can.

 

[darkbard]

A taunt which just caused your enemy to not be able to take an opportunity attack against your ally might be very useful. It would be a good distraction effect. To help enable escape... if it worked on multiple opponents similar to how an intimidation can.

Wizard's AW Winged Horde immediately jumps to mind as a model for balance purposes.

 

[Garthanos]

Wizard's AW Winged Horde immediately jumps to mind as a model for balance purposes.

I of course meant the question for the Attercop Attercop thread but thanks!