Power level of At-will power from second class?

[Jack99]

The multi-class rules are one of the things in 4e, that I am not too happy about. It is not that I do not like the way multi-classing is done, I just think it is lacking something.

Therefore, I was considering to institute a change in the rules. I was considering adding the following feat:

NMore Power
[Multiclass At-Will]
Prerequisite: Any class-specific multi-class feat
Benefit: You gain the use of an at-will power from your second class

Now, the goal of this isn't to make multi-classing a must. The goal is to create multi-class characters that feel as such before 11th level.

Basically, you could say that adding this feat would solve one of the bigger issues that we (my group and I) have with multi-classing in 4e. However, will this make multi-class characters more powerful than single-class ones? Versatility is great, but how powerful is it really?

Thanks in advance for any feedback

 

[catsclaw227]

Interesting idea.

Basically, you could say that adding this feat would solve one of the bigger issues that we (my group and I) have with multi-classing in 4e. However, will this make multi-class characters more powerful than single-class ones? Versatility is great, but how powerful is it really?

What are the issues with multiclassing that you are trying to solve?

Is the value of a feat equal to the value of an additional at-will? At-Wills in the heroic tier are all 1st level, but some are significantly more powerful than a basic attack. Like Twin Strike, for example.

 

[underfoot007]

Basically, you could say that adding this feat would solve one of the bigger issues that we (my group and I) have with multi-classing in 4e. However, will this make multi-class characters more powerful than single-class ones? Versatility is great, but how powerful is it really?
-----------------------------------
Yes, it will make multi-class chars much more powerful than single class chars. 4E brings multiclassing down to a reasonable level, imho. I think it is best to keep 4E multi-classing as written.
Good Luck.

 

[Kaelkatar]

At the very least you need to make it replace an old at will power. Secondly Twin Strike, and to maybe a lesser extent Righteous Brand and quite a deal more powerful than other at wills, and may easily unbalance a class.

 

[Mengu]

I wouldn't want to run into a Paladin who could Eyebite at will, or a Brawny Rogue with Wolfpack Tactics or Twin Strike at will.

I would say no to that fix. I actually don't mind the new approach. You want a fighter/wizard who feels like they can do both? Play a Swordmage. My ideal solution is a new class for each flavor of character you want to create. I like the simplicity of the current system, and the "dabbler" feel to all multiclassing.

Also from a design standpoint, rather than trying to balance multiclassing, it's much easier to create a new balanced class that "feels" multiclassed. All the old multiclass Prestige classes such as Arcane Archer, Arcane Trickster, etc, can now be turned into full blow classes, and have that unique feel from first level and up.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Interesting idea.


What are the issues with multiclassing that you are trying to solve?

Is the value of a feat equal to the value of an additional at-will? At-Wills in the heroic tier are all 1st level, but some are significantly more powerful than a basic attack. Like Twin Strike, for example.

I agree.
A Fighter might want:
Twin Strike (if dual weilding or bow using)
Righteous Brand (hit + buff ally)
Priest's Shield (again buff ally)
Valiant Strike (only if expected to be surrounded)
Viper/Wolf pack (occasionally useful)
Cloud of daggers (instant damage power)

Plus, Every Pally will get Eyebite and always be able to be invisible instead of 1/battle.

 

[Mad Hamish]

I'd say there are problems with that feat.

I don't know how bad it'd be in most cases but it'd be pretty damned tempting for my elven archer ranger with 20 dex and 10 str to burn it to get a rogue at will and attack in hth with dex...

Without a lot of experience in 4th ed yet the rest is theorycraft but
A rogue going for eyebite would also be likely broken case

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

Therefore, I was considering to institute a change in the rules. I was considering adding the following feat:

NMore Power
[Multiclass At-Will]
Prerequisite: Any class-specific multi-class feat
Benefit: You gain the use of an at-will power from your second class.

Will this make multi-class characters more powerful than single-class ones? Versatility is great, but how powerful is it really?

Thanks in advance for any feedback

I think it will make multiclass characters more powerful, simply because it is the only way I can see to get a third at-will power outside of being a human; and humans will get a fourth at-will.

If it was "Benefit: Swap one of your at-wills with an at-will from your second class" it would be much more in line with the other multiclass feats.

 

[Jack99]

Interesting idea.


What are the issues with multiclassing that you are trying to solve?

Is the value of a feat equal to the value of an additional at-will? At-Wills in the heroic tier are all 1st level, but some are significantly more powerful than a basic attack. Like Twin Strike, for example.

My beef is that multi-class lacks some ... well multi-classing in 4e. I understand the dabbler reasoning and all that, but that doesn't change the fact that I would like a multi-classed character to be able to do more than something once per encounter.

Regarding the power of at-will. While I do not dispute that some are more powerful than others, I am just not convinced that it would unbalance and make MC characters way more powerful than regular characters.

Yes, it will make multi-class chars much more powerful than single class chars. 4E brings multiclassing down to a reasonable level, imho. I think it is best to keep 4E multi-classing as written.
Good Luck.

See. This is where I disagree. Could you site some concrete examples of how it would overpower MC characters?

At the very least you need to make it replace an old at will power. Secondly Twin Strike, and to maybe a lesser extent Righteous Brand and quite a deal more powerful than other at wills, and may easily unbalance a class.

Yeah, this is my back-up solution.

I wouldn't want to run into a Paladin who could Eyebite at will, or a Brawny Rogue with Wolfpack Tactics or Twin Strike at will.

I would say no to that fix. I actually don't mind the new approach. You want a fighter/wizard who feels like they can do both? Play a Swordmage. My ideal solution is a new class for each flavor of character you want to create. I like the simplicity of the current system, and the "dabbler" feel to all multiclassing.

A paladin that eyebites? I fail to see the power of that, unless you plan on using divine challenge and then playing chicken. A rogue using wolf-pack or twin strike would indeed gain some utility, but he would lose the ability to attack using his dex whenever he did. I really do not see the big deal.

I agree.
A Fighter might want:
Twin Strike (if dual weilding or bow using)
Righteous Brand (hit + buff ally)
Priest's Shield (again buff ally)
Valiant Strike (only if expected to be surrounded)
Viper/Wolf pack (occasionally useful)
Cloud of daggers (instant damage power)

Plus, Every Pally will get Eyebite and always be able to be invisible instead of 1/battle.

Thinking more about it, I can see how a fighter with righteous brand would be pretty nasty to have around. However, he isn't much different from a str-based melee cleric, who can easily have just as high str.


In general, thanks for the feedback so far. I acknowledge that maybe it would be more in line with other feats to make it a power swap instead of an extra at-will.

Would that help any?

 

[Starbuck_II]

My beef is that multi-class lacks some ... well multi-classing in 4e. I understand the dabbler reasoning and all that, but that doesn't change the fact that I would like a multi-classed character to be able to do more than something once per encounter.

Regarding the power of at-will. While I do not dispute that some are more powerful than others, I am just not convinced that it would unbalance and make MC characters way more powerful than regular characters.


See. This is where I disagree. Could you site some concrete examples of how it would overpower MC characters?


Yeah, this is my back-up solution.


A paladin that eyebites? I fail to see the power of that, unless you plan on using divine challenge and then playing chicken. A rogue using wolf-pack or twin strike would indeed gain some utility, but he would lose the ability to attack using his dex whenever he did. I really do not see the big deal.

Thinking more about it, I can see how a fighter with righteous brand would be pretty nasty to have around. However, he isn't much different from a str-based melee cleric, who can easily have just as high str.


In general, thanks for the feedback so far. I acknowledge that maybe it would be more in line with other feats to make it a power swap instead of an extra at-will.

Would that help any?

Personally, yeah I think is power swap is pretty balanced. But let us know how playtesting of it goes (or actual game session if don't plasytest).