Power level of At-will power from second class?

[FireLance]

I don't think an extra at-will for a feat would be mechanically unbalanced. After all, the additional value of an extra at-will power is the difference between it and the next best thing that the character can do with his standard action. Depending on the situation, this could be an encounter power, a daily power, or the next best at-will power.

Where taking an at-will power is problematic, the problem usually lies with the specific at-will power than with the idea of taking additional at-will powers in general. I would be wary of giving fighters access to righteous brand, but that's because I think righteous brand is a little overpowered itself.

The recent changes to invisibility have also made eyebite less of a concern. Unless the character succeeds at a Stealth check that beats the passive perception of all his enemies, they still know where he is.

However, although I don't think that it would be mechanically unbalanced, I think that it would take away something that was previously a distinctive quality of half-elves, in much the same way that a feat that gave a character access to a third at-will from his class would reduce the distinctiveness of humans.

 

[keterys]

I think that one solution might be to present an option as attractive for single classed people.

For example, give an encounter power if you're _not_ multiclassed.

 

[KidSnide]

I don't think an extra at-will for a feat would be mechanically unbalanced. After all, the additional value of an extra at-will power is the difference between it and the next best thing that the character can do with his standard action.

I tend to disagree with this assessment. At-will powers can be quite powerful situationally (except Twin Strike, which is powerful all the time), and it is a big advantage to have the best at-will powers from multiple classes.

Now, if the at-will power was granted as a per-encounter power... that would still be a very good feat, but would probably be balanced. (Although any of these ideas cuts into the half-elf's special territory...)

-KS

 

[keterys]

Clearly, the trick then is to change the half-elf to get a true at-will from another class (drop his aura to balance it)

At any rate, the power level of at-wills depends a bit on how long combats run in your games and which level ranges you examine. A high level game with fairly optimized characters might see at-will use be fairly rare with a couple exceptions. Certain at-will powers like Righteous Brand, Twin Strike, Thunderwave, Sacred Flame, Riposte Strike, Eyebite will see uses no matter what due to longevity of usefulness or being overly powerful in the wrong hands (striker powers in defender hands often get a bit odd).

One way you could avoid it is by only allowing certain powers. I don't think you'll see nearly as much objection to Eldritch Blast, Ray of Frost, Commander's Strike, Cleave, Enfeebling Strike, Lance of Faith, etc. So pick like 2 powers per class that are eligible, while ignoring the crazier powers.

 

[Stalker0]

I agree that at bare minimum this should REPLACE an at-will, not add another one.

If you want to return to the spirit of 3e multiclassing, then you have to give up something to gain your new flexibility, and one feat is not enough.

There are plenty of powerful synergies already mentioned that shows that even with a feat and swapping the at-will, there are plenty of people who would do it.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Moved to house rules.

For your proposed solution it might be more in line with the existing feats for encounter, utility and daily powers to make the feat swap one of your existing at-wills for one of your multiclass at-wills.

I've got a thread somewhere in this forum about a change to multiclassing which I'm testing whereby the multiclass feat doesn't give you skill + minor benefit but instead gives lets you swap one of your at-wills for a multiclass at-will and gives an appropriate minor benefit.

My reasoning is that at-wills are more of a defining feature of a class in many ways, and I'd like to make them available to multiclassers without waiting until paragon level and missing out on extra stuff there to boot.

One of the nice things about this approach is that it makes it easy to make a two-weapon fighting fighter (who swaps his cleave for ranger twin-strike, for instance). The fact that the fighter is using a normal weapon and an off-hand weapon rather than two normal weapons like the ranger prevents him treading so much on the strikers toes, while still allowing for something pretty flavourful. Other similar mixtures seem to work quite nicely too.

Cheers

 

[Plane Sailing]

Also from a design standpoint, rather than trying to balance multiclassing, it's much easier to create a new balanced class that "feels" multiclassed.

Surely you jest sir! Creating a new class now entails creating 80+ powers for the class... a monstrously time consuming task

 

[Jack99]

Moved to house rules.

For your proposed solution it might be more in line with the existing feats for encounter, utility and daily powers to make the feat swap one of your existing at-wills for one of your multiclass at-wills.

I've got a thread somewhere in this forum about a change to multiclassing which I'm testing whereby the multiclass feat doesn't give you skill + minor benefit but instead gives lets you swap one of your at-wills for a multiclass at-will and gives an appropriate minor benefit.

My reasoning is that at-wills are more of a defining feature of a class in many ways, and I'd like to make them available to multiclassers without waiting until paragon level and missing out on extra stuff there to boot.

One of the nice things about this approach is that it makes it easy to make a two-weapon fighting fighter (who swaps his cleave for ranger twin-strike, for instance). The fact that the fighter is using a normal weapon and an off-hand weapon rather than two normal weapons like the ranger prevents him treading so much on the strikers toes, while still allowing for something pretty flavourful. Other similar mixtures seem to work quite nicely too.

Cheers

I read your thread. It seems I have some more thinking to do, before I make up my mind. But I like your house rule. Have you had any experience with it yet?

 

[LostSoul]

One way you could avoid it is by only allowing certain powers. I don't think you'll see nearly as much objection to Eldritch Blast, Ray of Frost, Commander's Strike, Cleave, Enfeebling Strike, Lance of Faith, etc. So pick like 2 powers per class that are eligible, while ignoring the crazier powers.

I think that could work out well. Maybe you replace one of your current At-Wills with this new one.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I read your thread. It seems I have some more thinking to do, before I make up my mind. But I like your house rule. Have you had any experience with it yet?

It is out there as an option, but no takers yet. Two replacement characters being created this Sunday, and I hope I'll be able to persuade at least one of them to give it a go!

Cheers