Powerful people vs high-level characters
- Thread starter Li Shenron
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Hong - there are weak/low-level rulers in fantasy fiction, aren't there? Either 'bad' rulers or young inexperienced ones, who may even be the protagonist. Maybe Palpatine is super-high-level but I doubt his predecessor was. Not all fictional rulers are Arthur. In fantasy fiction you very commonly see weak rulers controlled by or replaced by the chief villain.
But see, if your point of reference really is fiction, then you generally don't care about things like Palpatine's predecessor, or a weak ruler being replaced by a chief villain, etc. That's because these are part of the backstory -- offstage, if you like -- and their stats simply don't enter into the equation. The point is that those rulers whom the PCs are expected to have extended dealings with will generally be high-level.S'mon said:
Yeah, I tend to agree, although the weak guy may occasionally enter play - eg the PCs may meet the 'king' and think "Why does this guy seem so ineffectual?" - and start to work out that the Evil Vizier is really in charge. Or maybe the 14-year-old princess has just inherited the throne and the PCs need to protect her from some threat while she gains the experience needed to become an effective ruler.
Thinking about fully statted low-level rulers IMC - in the previous campaign the high level PCs were retainers of a noble ruler, Margrave Kanor, who started out 6th level Aristocrat but with CHA 20 (thanks, Jamis Buck) 
- Kanor used his political skills to grow rapidly in power and was 12th-level Aristocrat Duke Kanor by end of the campaign. There was also a ca 4th level Aristocrat ruler Margravine Eloise who the PCs had to bodyguard when she travelled south to negotiate a diplomatic treaty with a barbarian nation the Makyans - with her maxed out Diplomacy she was highly effective and rolling a '20' to Diplomatise the 16th-level Makyan Barbarian monarch King Marowa didn't hurt, either.
- Kanor used his political skills to grow rapidly in power and was 12th-level Aristocrat Duke Kanor by end of the campaign. There was also a ca 4th level Aristocrat ruler Margravine Eloise who the PCs had to bodyguard when she travelled south to negotiate a diplomatic treaty with a barbarian nation the Makyans - with her maxed out Diplomacy she was highly effective and rolling a '20' to Diplomatise the 16th-level Makyan Barbarian monarch King Marowa didn't hurt, either.Hm, yes, there are those possibilities as well. I guess the basic question "should rulers always be high level?" is really of less relevance when you have a game consciously modelled after fantasy fiction. The important question is "should people in positions of power always be high level?", which is slightly different.S'mon said:
hong said:
As per examples above, you can have effective rulers without physical or magical power; high CHA and maybe maxed Diplomacy etc. In a high-magic game they may need magical protections vs scrying, area-effect spells, & such, but they don't need to be able to lay the smackdown on anyone personally.
IMCs I've GM'd a lot of low-level rulers dealing with powerful PCs. The key to success & survival is psychology - treat the Wiz-15 or Ftr-15 with respect, reward generously for any service (or apologise profusely if payment is inadequate) and you'll do well, demand obeisance or otherwise act obnoxiously and you're in trouble. Dealing with a high-level PC (or PC-type NPC) is a lot like dealing with another powerful ruler; you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
Gez
First Post
I do not use the same experience and levelling rules for NPCs as for PCs.
PCs are adventurers. They gain experience through adventuring.
NPCs are whatever they are. Kings gain experience by solving bringing prosperity to their kingdom, forging good alliance, making wise decisions, etc. If the king is wise, he'll be high-level. If he's a foolish fop, but follows faithfully his minister's advice and this results in good decisions, then the king is low level but the minister is high level.
("High" and "low" being relative terms, there, not necessarily "above 13" and "below 5"...)
So, yes, I'm not afraid of giving a legendary seamstress 10 levels in Expert. She would then be able to win in a 1-on-1 fight against most soldiers (who are going to be level 1 to 3 warriors). And why not? She's a legend. It's fantasy. The goddess of weaving is certainly protecting her.
I'm not afraid of having high-level NPCs -- I'm just shy on making them level 15 or higher. At that limit, generally, they stop being involved in mundane affairs and get higher callings, whatever that is.
For example, very high-level NPC arcanists will usually belong to Prime Order, a secret "organization" (a bit too loose for being called an organization, but I won't claim to have a wide enough English vocabulary to find something better suited) that never involves itself in political affairs and just fade out of mundane life. For the everyday man, they just disappear and are never heard of anymore. In fact, they learn secrets about magic, the world, its origins, its enemies, and so on, and they fight off threats and contemplate mysteries the average character cannot even imagine.
PCs are adventurers. They gain experience through adventuring.
NPCs are whatever they are. Kings gain experience by solving bringing prosperity to their kingdom, forging good alliance, making wise decisions, etc. If the king is wise, he'll be high-level. If he's a foolish fop, but follows faithfully his minister's advice and this results in good decisions, then the king is low level but the minister is high level.
("High" and "low" being relative terms, there, not necessarily "above 13" and "below 5"...)
So, yes, I'm not afraid of giving a legendary seamstress 10 levels in Expert. She would then be able to win in a 1-on-1 fight against most soldiers (who are going to be level 1 to 3 warriors). And why not? She's a legend. It's fantasy. The goddess of weaving is certainly protecting her.
I'm not afraid of having high-level NPCs -- I'm just shy on making them level 15 or higher. At that limit, generally, they stop being involved in mundane affairs and get higher callings, whatever that is.
For example, very high-level NPC arcanists will usually belong to Prime Order, a secret "organization" (a bit too loose for being called an organization, but I won't claim to have a wide enough English vocabulary to find something better suited) that never involves itself in political affairs and just fade out of mundane life. For the everyday man, they just disappear and are never heard of anymore. In fact, they learn secrets about magic, the world, its origins, its enemies, and so on, and they fight off threats and contemplate mysteries the average character cannot even imagine.
I think that the Core D&D rules are not very good at modelling non-high level people with influence....in some ways.
One of my primary beefs is the linkage of character wealth to character level. It makes it impossible to have a 1st lvl expert (mercant) or aristocrat who is also a millionaire. What if he inherited his money from a parent?
So that's the first thing that has to be done away with. Perhaps set it so only PCs are bound by those restrictions? It's mainly there to keep characters from amassing wealth too fast, or encountering NPCs with low levels that are loaded with powerful loot. But who's to say that every 1st lvl rich character is going to be dripping with magic weapons? In real life, who many rich people have tonnes of firearms and such? Mostly they've got nice cars, expensive furniture, paintings, big homes, etc. etc. Having an expensive gold-enameled coach isn't going to make a low lvl PC powerful in the physical sense.
Of course, this causes other problems.....like why don't PCs or powerful characters simply run amok, stealing and pillaging from these weaker characters? I guess the answer to that is, why doesn't it happen in real life? Because there are consequences. Maybe that 1st lvl aristocrat running a province is protected by not only several tough, experienced lvl 10 bodyguards, but also by law. If PCs try to off him, then he'll have the entire force of the law working against them. Given that the guard etc. have to deal with challenges on a day-to-day basis, my assumption is that they won't all be level 1. The PCs might beat one or two encounters, but what happens when another 3 squads show up? Eventually they run out of spells and resources, and will need to sleep. Sure, some characters will always want to try it....but then the DM should be there to hand out the smackdown.
And if there are lawful good or lawful neutral characters in a party, will they work with a companion who just broke the law by assaulting or killing someone? As a DM, I remind my players of this. We had an incident in one of my campaigns where a rogue physically assaulted and robbed an NPC. A lawful good character in the party actually captured him, and turned him in to the guards. He ended up going to trial and being punished for his crime. Although it pitted one character against another, role-playing wise, it made sense, and everyone had a good time as a result of it.....even the player whose character got arrested.
Even the aristocrats and such can be higher than lvl 1. XP is awarded for dealing with challenges....and those can be for doing things other than killing dragons. Characters can get them for picking locks, negotiating through some form of natural environmental condition, successfully negotiating against another character to achieve a goal, via Diplomacy, etc.
I would recommend using the Noble class from from any of various supplements...DLCS, Noble's Handbook, Rokugan D20, Swashbuckling Adventures, etc.....as well as the Courtier class. The Courtier class especially gives a socially oriented class that covers all the various people in the game who need to have roles *other* than kicking down downs and killing stuff. They're skill-oriented, with lots of points, but few hp's, and the BAB of a wizard. But great with your Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Bluff, etc. etc.
I think that DMs simply need to look beyond the core rules, and there are plenty of ideas out there.
Banshee
One of my primary beefs is the linkage of character wealth to character level. It makes it impossible to have a 1st lvl expert (mercant) or aristocrat who is also a millionaire. What if he inherited his money from a parent?
So that's the first thing that has to be done away with. Perhaps set it so only PCs are bound by those restrictions? It's mainly there to keep characters from amassing wealth too fast, or encountering NPCs with low levels that are loaded with powerful loot. But who's to say that every 1st lvl rich character is going to be dripping with magic weapons? In real life, who many rich people have tonnes of firearms and such? Mostly they've got nice cars, expensive furniture, paintings, big homes, etc. etc. Having an expensive gold-enameled coach isn't going to make a low lvl PC powerful in the physical sense.
Of course, this causes other problems.....like why don't PCs or powerful characters simply run amok, stealing and pillaging from these weaker characters? I guess the answer to that is, why doesn't it happen in real life? Because there are consequences. Maybe that 1st lvl aristocrat running a province is protected by not only several tough, experienced lvl 10 bodyguards, but also by law. If PCs try to off him, then he'll have the entire force of the law working against them. Given that the guard etc. have to deal with challenges on a day-to-day basis, my assumption is that they won't all be level 1. The PCs might beat one or two encounters, but what happens when another 3 squads show up? Eventually they run out of spells and resources, and will need to sleep. Sure, some characters will always want to try it....but then the DM should be there to hand out the smackdown.
And if there are lawful good or lawful neutral characters in a party, will they work with a companion who just broke the law by assaulting or killing someone? As a DM, I remind my players of this. We had an incident in one of my campaigns where a rogue physically assaulted and robbed an NPC. A lawful good character in the party actually captured him, and turned him in to the guards. He ended up going to trial and being punished for his crime. Although it pitted one character against another, role-playing wise, it made sense, and everyone had a good time as a result of it.....even the player whose character got arrested.
Even the aristocrats and such can be higher than lvl 1. XP is awarded for dealing with challenges....and those can be for doing things other than killing dragons. Characters can get them for picking locks, negotiating through some form of natural environmental condition, successfully negotiating against another character to achieve a goal, via Diplomacy, etc.
I would recommend using the Noble class from from any of various supplements...DLCS, Noble's Handbook, Rokugan D20, Swashbuckling Adventures, etc.....as well as the Courtier class. The Courtier class especially gives a socially oriented class that covers all the various people in the game who need to have roles *other* than kicking down downs and killing stuff. They're skill-oriented, with lots of points, but few hp's, and the BAB of a wizard. But great with your Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Bluff, etc. etc.
I think that DMs simply need to look beyond the core rules, and there are plenty of ideas out there.
Banshee
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