Powerful people vs high-level characters

[Parlan]

... so maybe we wind up using her combat stats not because she is a challenge to the PC's, but because saving her is a challenge. The Tumble score lets her dodge around a bit while her attacker is trying to grab her. She's very fragile though so the PC's better act quickly.

Maybe I could have statted her using an NPC class, but my point is that it's just not always necessary to make it fit exactly. And if I did in this case, then all of a sudden she would have a BAB of something like +3, and around 15 extra HP's, and would be able to kick the crap out of a goblin warrior or two.

You say it doesn’t really matter much whether you break the rules in this instance or not, and I agree. She’s just a ballerina. But the flip side is, why not just stat her out according to the rules?

First, it can spur creativity. You might realize that she has access to a lot more skill points than you thought, so she could have more ranks in something else to give her personality. Put them in Swim, maybe she’ll invite a PC she fancies out for a midnight dip or something. I frequently get ideas this way.

Second, can she REALLY beat a goblin warrior? Maybe her BAB is a couple pts higher, but that will be negated by her STR penalty and the Goblin’s size bonus. In any case, it’s irrelevant. She’s wearing a tutu and carrying a rose. The goblin is wearing scale mail, and carrying a shield and axe. He’ll split her in a couple rounds, less if he has Power Attack.

Third, I think people are misinterpreting HPs. Part of them is being tough enough to soak up blows, but part of it is being able to get out of the way of attacks, overlapping somewhat with AC. This chick’s AC, even when using total defense, is 17. Giving her only 1d4 hps makes her completely irrelevant to the story.

Why? The PC Collateral Damage Rule. PCs get attacked by enemies having a CR of about the party’s level. So NPCs near the party are frequently taken out by these enemies as collateral damage.

If she has only d4 HP, then virtually ANY area of effect spell cast at fifth level is going to kill her. -10 HP Dead Kill her. Whether she makes her save or not (and she probably won’t). The party has no chance to save her from death.

This doesn’t matter if she’s some run of the mill NPC on the street, but if she’s a plot hook or something, she shouldn’t die automatically from one unlucky hit or spell. Such NPCs should have enough HPs to let the Cleric stabilize them after they’ve taken an unlucky hit or two. Otherwise, she’s too fragile to even be relevant.

If HP really are a problem for you, give her a Con penalty. Her Dance routines can’t be so long that they require Fort Saves.

 

[S'mon]

Parlan - you can have 3 hp and still be 'relevant' to a PC - I recall the BECMD&D Thyatian Senator who was the arch-nemesis of a high level PC, the guy indeed had 3 hp - but I agree that if you want the NPC to accompany the PCs into danger, double-figure hps are advisable. About 1/4 of the typical PC's hps should usually be ok.

 

[S'mon]

BTW given that goblins are maybe 3'6" and weigh, oh, 40lbs? Less? - I don't find it at all implausible that they can be beaten up by ballerinas.

One reason I tend to make named noncom NPCs 3rd level Experts or similar.

 

[Trickstergod]

Generally speaking, for human nobility types, at least, I go with a high Charisma and a class range of around 4-8, with a focus on Aristocrat and Skill Focus feats.

Because you know what? Raw power doesn't mean anyone will listen to you, short of a threat of death.

Take 4 characters, 3 of whom are level 20 PC classes that aren't particularly Charisma and Diplomacy based, then a level 3 character with a high Charisma, maxed out Diplomacy (and a few complimentary skills to that) and a Skill Focus feat or two for social skills, and the level 20 characters would be taking orders from the level 3 character.

It's a matter of simple social dynamics. The most confident, most well-spoken person with the most forceful personality will take the position of leadership because others will listen to him, even if his ideas aren't very good. If anything, he'll just coopt the ideas of brighter people and make them his own. It's a common fantasy theme, anyway; the kind of dumb, but gregarious leader, with the rather bright, magical fellow behind the throne. Arthur and Merlin, the Sultan and Ja'afar and so on.

Now, some might question this example, but I will say, from LARP'ing experience, this is the sort of thing that happens all the time. While those charismatic players usually wind up getting personally powerful, anyway, from being able to finagle NPC's and the like, they still swiftly take a position of leadership over people sometimes 5-10 times their level at the beginning of things.

Of course, in light of teleportation and scrying and the like, if having that sort of thing as a common threat floats your boat (it doesn't float mine), a level 6 Aristocrat, 18 Charisma king might seem far too fragile.

Still, doesn't matter. The people who wouldn't be so fragile would be the folk who wind up protecting said Aristocrat. The person who gets listened to winds up leading, not the one who can blast phalanxes down with eldritch fire.

Even cases of restricted leadership, like a mage-based oligarchy, would have the leadership positions filled by the more charismatic individuals of the order as opposed to the most powerful. Unless of course the government has silly rules about leadership such as standardized testing or being able to cast such and such a spell or duels to the death - in which case, the government wouldn't likely live long due to instability and a number of ineffectual leaders. It's important that a leader can smooth-talk and not get relegated to the back of a crowd during a conversation.

If anything, the classes that would naturally gravitate to leadership positions should be the Bard or Rogue. A Sorcerer lakes the skill base to be a decent leader (no Diplomacy, though Bluff is helpful), while most Clerics will generally come short in either Charisma or social skills (same thing with Paladins).

Sure, a high level Wizard or Sorcerer might be able to keep certain key figures constantly charmed or what not, but those figures would still, in all likelihood, act as the social face for the mage. So the mage might as well just act as an "advisor," even if it's only in name.

However, I will add that, yeah, sometimes it's cool to get into a knock down, drag out fight with the evil leader guy. In which case, he probably is someone to fear. Similarly, other, non-human races are also likely to have different types of leaders.

However, when it comes to leaders that I don't intend to have in combat with the PC's (and even sometimes when I do; that's what champions are for, after all), then they're usually some mix of Aristrocrat and Fighter, around level 4-8, with a high Charisma and Skill Focus feats in social skills. Even taking into account skill prowess equating to level, level 6 alone can grant a +16 to the integral skills when you throw in Skill Focus and a high Charisma or the like. Take into account synergy bonuses, double skill feats on top of Skill Focus and specifically being built as a leader as opposed to a dungeon crawler, and it becomes fairly easy to have a relatively low-level leader that still has the skill to govern nations.

I think gamers all too often underestimate the ability to politic, be listened to and be, well, Charismatic, even in light of magic.

 

[Slobber Monster]

You say it doesn’t really matter much whether you break the rules in this instance or not, and I agree. She’s just a ballerina. But the flip side is, why not just stat her out according to the rules?

As I said, it is unnecessary and possibly a waste of time if you already have the concept in mind and just want to jot it out and get on to the next thing.

First, it can spur creativity. You might realize that she has access to a lot more skill points than you thought, so she could have more ranks in something else to give her personality. Put them in Swim, maybe she’ll invite a PC she fancies out for a midnight dip or something. I frequently get ideas this way.

That's all fine, but as I said not always needed.

Second, can she REALLY beat a goblin warrior? Maybe her BAB is a couple pts higher, but that will be negated by her STR penalty and the Goblin’s size bonus. In any case, it’s irrelevant. She’s wearing a tutu and carrying a rose. The goblin is wearing scale mail, and carrying a shield and axe. He’ll split her in a couple rounds, less if he has Power Attack.

A MM standard CR 1/3 goblin warrior only has leather armor and a morningstar, and cannot take Power Attack due to its Str score of 11. A level 6 expert armed only with a dagger has a reasonable chance to beat one in battle by virtue of having three-four times as many HP's and a similar total attack bonus. Spend the Expert's two extra Feats on something combat relevant and it might be a cakewalk.

I don't think it's necessarily wrong in general that ballerinas should be able to beat up goblin warriors, but if that's not what I want for a particular npc than it isn't so. How I get there really shouldn't matter much. Is that so wrong?

Third, I think people are misinterpreting HPs. Part of them is being tough enough to soak up blows, but part of it is being able to get out of the way of attacks, overlapping somewhat with AC. This chick’s AC, even when using total defense, is 17. Giving her only 1d4 hps makes her completely irrelevant to the story.

Why? The PC Collateral Damage Rule. PCs get attacked by enemies having a CR of about the party’s level. So NPCs near the party are frequently taken out by these enemies as collateral damage.

If she has only d4 HP, then virtually ANY area of effect spell cast at fifth level is going to kill her. -10 HP Dead Kill her. Whether she makes her save or not (and she probably won’t). The party has no chance to save her from death.

This doesn’t matter if she’s some run of the mill NPC on the street, but if she’s a plot hook or something, she shouldn’t die automatically from one unlucky hit or spell. Such NPCs should have enough HPs to let the Cleric stabilize them after they’ve taken an unlucky hit or two. Otherwise, she’s too fragile to even be relevant.

You are taking a narrow view of things. Death can be very relavant to the story. What if her death is just one of many possible intended plot branches I have in mind? Sometimes I like to give the PCs a chance to do something, but only a very slim one. So if they pull it off, good for them, but if not then that's the direction the story goes.

 

[Buttercup]

Levels in aristocrat are better for ruling than levels in Fighter.

Don't forget Expert. If you want a ruler to have lots of knowledge skills, diplomacy, appraise and the like, I'd think that giving levels in Expert would do the trick.

There is a problem with the system not allowing skill points to be earned without also earning HP, BAB, etc., but you can always just ignore the rules like any good DM and give a 1st level aristocrat or commoner 300 skill points with no maximum rank.

Yup, and why on earth not? Unless your players are into adolescent shenanigans like killing everyone they come across (in which case they should be playing Diablo) you can just give your ruler the skills you think he should have.

But what I actually do? I don't stat them out. What's the point?

Good question. I don't stat out every bartender and fishmonger the party comes across. If I need to give stats to someone, I only give them the stats necessary. For instance a ruler would have a will save only if I thought he or she would be involved in an encounter that needed one.

I admit that I think it's fun to create NPC stat blocks, and I've been known to do it for kicks. But if I'm busy writing up a realm, I'm not going to stop the flow of ideas to stat out all the courtiers.

 

[Parlan]

Parlan - you can have 3 hp and still be 'relevant' to a PC - I recall the BECMD&D Thyatian Senator who was the arch-nemesis of a high level PC, the guy indeed had 3 hp - but I agree that if you want the NPC to accompany the PCs into danger, double-figure hps are advisable. About 1/4 of the typical PC's hps should usually be ok.

True, but the original poster was talking about the PCs "protecting her". If they're protecting her from anything that remotely challenges them, that ballerina is going to be deader than fried chicken in a round.

 

[Parlan]

A MM standard CR 1/3 goblin warrior only has leather armor and a morningstar, and cannot take Power Attack due to its Str score of 11. A level 6 expert armed only with a dagger has a reasonable chance to beat one in battle by virtue of having three-four times as many HP's and a similar total attack bonus. Spend the Expert's two extra Feats on something combat relevant and it might be a cakewalk.

why would a ballerina have combat-related feats? Why would she carry a dagger? she's a ballerina!


Obviously one COULD make a ballerina that could whup goblin-butt, but if you made a standard ballerina, she would have only a slight chance to win. For example, if she happened to have a vase ready and got really lucky with her attack role. In most cases, her BAB and HP don't matter b/c she doesn't have any weapons handy in any case.

I don't think it's necessarily wrong in general that ballerinas should be able to beat up goblin warriors, but if that's not what I want for a particular npc than it isn't so. How I get there really shouldn't matter much. Is that so wrong?

Obviously your method isn't wrong. If you and your are having fun, that's all that matters.

That said, I disagree with your method b/c all the npc concepts you're talking about can be handled in game. YMMV

You are taking a narrow view of things. Death can be very relavant to the story. What if her death is just one of many possible intended plot branches I have in mind? Sometimes I like to give the PCs a chance to do something, but only a very slim one. So if they pull it off, good for them, but if not then that's the direction the story goes.

If the mission is protecting a ballerina from death, then death should be an option. But if the party is facing a CR 5 threat, a 3hp ballerina would hav eto be very lucky indeed to survive!

 

[Slobber Monster]

True, but the original poster was talking about the PCs "protecting her". If they're protecting her from anything that remotely challenges them, that ballerina is going to be deader than fried chicken in a round.

If the goal is to make it very hard to protect her then it works just fine. For low level PC's the opponent could be a mundane CR 2-4 thug, so no worry about auto-kill magic missiles and the like. For higher level pc's consider what can be accomplished with spells like Dimension Door, Wall of Force, etc. In any case this would be an investigation scenario and success would depend more on detective work and preparation than any expectation that she would be likely to survive the murder attempt. For those of us who like a little uncertainty with our certainty, there is still some reasonable chance of her running away once combat does break out.


(Does it seem that my example is quickly morphing into Hitchcock's "The Man Who Knew Too Much"? Why do I have the suspicion I'm going to wind up using this as a hook somewhere down the line?)

 

[Psion]

Levels in aristocrat are better for ruling than levels in Fighter.

That one.

Yes, leaders tend to be higher level in my game. But not necessarily in PC classes. When it comes to political maneuvering, bluff, diplomacy, and sense motive are more important than BAB. Those are the types of skills that tend to put you in positions of leadership or let you maintain that position.