Powerful people vs high-level characters

[S'mon]

At that point, why does the character have stats at all? Such a character is good for only one thing, a dancing die roll. If their purpose is going to be that simple, though, you don't need the die roll. Why not just say, "She dances with a grace to rival a swan on a moonlit night," and leave it at that?

Because the party Bard might want to challenge her to a dancing contest*? If PCs use Skill rules the GM needs to be prepared to assign skills to NPCs, however arbitrarily.

*There's a PC like this IMC, though I don't allow Bards so she's a Rogue-songwriter.

 

[Sarellion]

The earlier middle ages were full of conflict and strife. All the feudal lords were jockeying for position because they had to, otherwise thy would be overwhelmed by their neighbours. These guys didn´t build their castles for the nice view. In such a setting where might makes right it would be appropriate that rulers have high levels. But the standard D&D campaign pictures a different time where conflicts inside your own country were mostly nonviolent.

 

[S'mon]

Li - IMC a low-level ruler is probably either young, newly crowned, so they haven't earned many XP yet, or lazy, so they haven't earned much XP. Eg Henry V might be lowish-level when newly crowned (say 5th), but as an active dynamic ruler and leader of armies would probably be 10th within a few years, probably a Fighter with some Aristocrat levels. A weak king like Edward II might be straight*-Aristocrat and never get above 4th or 5th level.

*You know what I mean.

 

[hong]

A weak king like Edward II might be straight*-Aristocrat and never get above 4th or 5th level.

*You know what I mean.

D00d, clearly you need to get a new avatar pic. I'm rubbing off on you*.

* You know what I mean.

 

[Umbran]

You're really missing the point here. Of course stat them out as much or as little as required. For some DM's (i.e. me) having a few numbers to glance at is nice in many cases because you can quickly determine how someone's skills or abilities fit into the world and compare to those of PC's.

No, I think you are really missing the point here.

When you set an NPC's skill particularly high (or low), you don't need the numbers to determine where their skills and abilities sit - you've already decided that in your own head before you write down the number. If you already have decided what's going to happen, why do you need the number?

The NPC creation guidelines are for creating characters - rounded, varied, multi-functional people. But in a one-trick pony like this, you don't have a character, really. The thing's only purpose in life is to set up or make high DC checks. That makes it more like a trap. Might as well treat it as one. Write down "Beat a DC 30 to win a dance contest" and leave it at that.

 

[drothgery]

The high priest isnt always the highest level cleric. Let me give you an example, in the wilderlands there is an evil temple with a couple priests over 12th level. But the leader of the temple is a 4th level cleric. Why? Because the Fallen Paladin/Blackguard and his warband are loyal to the 4th level cleric and no one dares oppose the 4th level cleric when he made his power play to run the temple.

I don't think this scenario can last very long when exposed to PCs, who think "evil high priest with little personal power and goon squad that's loyal to him, not the evil church" and start planning ways to kill an evil high priest (because his blackguards can't be around him all the time) and set off a civil war inside an evil priesthood.

 

[S'mon]

The NPC creation guidelines are for creating characters - rounded, varied, multi-functional people. But in a one-trick pony like this, you don't have a character, really. The thing's only purpose in life is to set up or make high DC checks. That makes it more like a trap. Might as well treat it as one. Write down "Beat a DC 30 to win a dance contest" and leave it at that.

This is a weird take on the word 'character' - character comes from personality not stats; whether they're Com-1 or Bard-20 the dancer will seem real or not depending on the GM's description & how he plays her. You're not really talking about making rounded varied multi-functional personalities as far as I can tell. That said, if you are running a cinematic type game where she's a major figure you may want this dancer to be able to beat up a few guards with her danc moves & not die from a random swordstroke, so make her reasonably tough - Expert-6, say.

 

[S'mon]

When you set an NPC's skill particularly high (or low), you don't need the numbers to determine where their skills and abilities sit - you've already decided that in your own head before you write down the number. If you already have decided what's going to happen, why do you need the number?

For reference? I don't have eidetic memory; if the PCs return 5 years later I'd like to be able to see what Perform skill the dancer had last time they met her.

 

[Slobber Monster]

No, I think you are really missing the point here.

When you set an NPC's skill particularly high (or low), you don't need the numbers to determine where their skills and abilities sit - you've already decided that in your own head before you write down the number. If you already have decided what's going to happen, why do you need the number?

Because there might be as much as a 3-4 month gap between when I stat her and when she's used. Also because "Perform(Dance) +20" is just shorthand for "she's one of the best dancers in the known world".

The NPC creation guidelines are for creating characters - rounded, varied, multi-functional people. But in a one-trick pony like this, you don't have a character, really. The thing's only purpose in life is to set up or make high DC checks. That makes it more like a trap. Might as well treat it as one. Write down "Beat a DC 30 to win a dance contest" and leave it at that.

You're really just nitpicking the example and missing the idea behind it. Maybe if I gave a full example it would be better.

Stumbleena the famous Ballerina is afraid of her murderous former lover will seek to hire the PC's as bodyguards. She is an exceptional dancer, and has studied gymnastics as part of her training. She has lead a sheltered life thus far and is ignorant of the world, though she does have a sharp tongue from bossing around her servants.

CR -; Str 8, Dex 12, Con 12, Cha 12; BAB +0; HD 1d4; HP 3; Perform(Dance) +15, Tumble +8, Balance +8, Intimidate +5

... so maybe we wind up using her combat stats not because she is a challenge to the PC's, but because saving her is a challenge. The Tumble score lets her dodge around a bit while her attacker is trying to grab her. Maybe she'll use Balance to do something dangerous like attempt to escape out on a narrow ledge. She's very fragile though so the PC's better act quickly. If the PC's investigate her background and want to know how much she's worth, I can quickly deduce from Perform to get her average income. So in my notes I would have only included the above line, and not this or the previous paragraph, because that's all I need to see at game time to remind me of these things.

Maybe I could have statted her using an NPC class, but my point is that it's just not always necessary to make it fit exactly. And if I did in this case, then all of a sudden she would have a BAB of something like +3, and around 15 extra HP's, and would be able to kick the crap out of a goblin warrior or two. All of a sudden she no longer fills her role in the adventure as well, and doesn't make as much sense in my setting.

 

[Li Shenron]

For reference? I don't have eidetic memory; if the PCs return 5 years later I'd like to be able to see what Perform skill the dancer had last time they met her.

There is of course a matter of "how much is worth". I suppose the players will never see her skill mod, and you don't need to remember yourself if she had a +10 or +20, you'd just roll something vs the player roll and tell the result.