D&D 5E Powergamer Cleric= Variant Human?

[Tony Vargas]

The CPH cleric had most of its spells cu from it.

Yep! The Spheres were brilliant, that way. D&D casters had been syncretic nightmares, every Cleric with the exact same list, filled with inappropriate spells. Finally, you could define a priesthood with a somewhat sensible spell list.
Later, the Sorcerer accomplished something of the same order on the arcane side.

Complete Fighter/Thief/Wizards were good, the later ones sucked (Elves, Bards, Paladins etc).

The elves Complete book was notoriously broken. But, the first 4 were very uneven. Fighters introduced Kits, mostly cosmetic, but cool. Thief, OTOH, the kits were desultory little things. Wizard had some kits like the Fighter, and a couple more involved ones with substantial powers.
But, in each case, they just gave you some kits to choose from.
CPH, OTOH, gave the DM a flexible system to create as many unique priesthoods as he cared to.

 

[Ashrym]

The nature cleric can skip magic initiate and takes PAM.
The others will skip it, maybe take it later or take a different feat.
A level 1 PAM nature cleric in medium armor isn't a bad deal. I would probably take warcaster over asi if I was planning on using spiritual guardians melee build.
The 3 builds.
Nature cleric, PAM lvl 1.
Arcana cleric. Magic initiate, GFB.
Every other type of cleric
Magic initiate.
All will probably take warcaster lvl 4 or 8.
As previous poster stated only arcane cleric can get gfb keyed off wisdom. At level 8 they can double stack their wisdom modifier on it.
I have also seen war, tempest, death, life clerics in action. None of them impressed me in melee, the light cleric was good at being a spellcaster.
Also what if you're not picking the best domains? My magic initiate trickster or knowledge cleric would work alright yes?​

Standard spread isn't typical of an optimization discussion, but even so you are back to most clerics taking shillelagh at 1st level via feat, war caster before 10th level, and an 18 WIS at best. Shillelagh doesn't help someone who isn't pumping their casting stat over feats. That would be shillelagh with an 18 WIS, no damage for WIS bonus unless specifically arcana using green-flame blade, or divine strike avg 4.5 damage per hit because it's independent of WIS and beating the arcana cleric's 18 WIS or 20 WIS lacking a feat. If the cleric is taking mostly spells that don't require saves or attack rolls (like combat buffs and healing) because he or she is focusing on melee then WIS becomes the secondary ability score.

An 8th level STR / WIS cleric can easily have 18 STR and 16 WIS on a standard point spread plus a feat. Or vice versa. The trickster cleric in your example on a standard spread looks something like this:

12 STR
14 DEX
14 CON
8 INT
18 WIS
10 CHA

That's taking shillelagh through initiate at 1st level and war caster at 4th or 8th level. Compare that to the same character who takes heavy armor proficiency at 1st level instead of shillelagh.

18 STR
8 DEX
15 CON
10 INT
15 WIS
12 CHA

That's taking resilient con instead of war caster at 4th level for better stat spread. That could be three 16's instead or wait for 12th level. Shillelagh isn't giving an stat advantage on the attack ability score. It does give an advantage on spells that require saves or attack rolls keeping in mind you just made a cleric who attacks via melee as his standard attack. My example isn't optimized either, still caps at 20 main ability score with two 16's and can add another feat or bump up to an 18 WIS or 18 CON instead of a feat.

​

It seems counter-intuitive to go STR and heavy armor on a trickery cleric but if a person wants to melee the armor helps, the strength is important because of the STR 15 minimum goal anyway, and investing in strength already means continuing to do so isn't a big deal and strength covers what shillelagh would already.

Trickery cleric is already counter intuitive giving no proficiency bonuses but divine strikes (using poison as a damage type) instead of potent spellcasting. If I were playing a trickery cleric I might focus on DEX / WIS for skill benefits and wouldn't need the heavier armor or shillelagh. Shillelagh might be tempting if forgoing DEX or STR advancement on this one but it's not going to make much improvement in combat damage. Building for STR and fitting in PAM and GWM with a focus on buffs / healing would be much more impressive and is doable. It doesn't take capped out STR with those feats to beat shillelagh and max WIS.

Nature is a bit different because they don't need to spend a feat for shillelagh and get divine strike instead of potent spellcasting, so sure, take it. It's a cheap basic combat improvement. There are more damaging options but for the cost there it's reasonable enough.

Knowledge gets potent spellcasting instead of divine strike. Use word of radiance.

Any 8th level cleric with Potent Spellcasting and a wisdom of 20: Get surrounded by 8 enemies then spam Word of Radiance. Average damage = 96 hp per round.

Just an example, but any domain with Potent Spellcasting, including Arcana, is probably better off not wasting time hitting things with a stick. And Arcana has lots of other good options for its two wizard cantrips competing with GFB and BB.

Word of Radiance specifies targets that you can see. You wouldn't get all 8 surrounding you unless you have eyes in the back of your head. And eye slots in the back of your helmet to match. I guess if the cleric can jump high and look down shenanigans. I'd require a DEX (acrobatics) check to flip and cast during the jump in order to look and cast from the right angle during the jump, but that's just me. If the character can jump well enough over a crowd he or she might be able to see 9 targets. It's easier with flight. Three dimensional combat FTW. Also, I might try things like that during combat. ;-)

Sword burst isn't selective but it does get everyone around the caster so would catch twice as many targets as word of radiance, and is easily available to arcana clerics.

 

[FrogReaver]

It's also plus two on the spell DC for Spirit guardians.

Which amounts to a relatively tiny increase in the damage output of spirit guardians.

Since you can't or won't melee all of the time that 20 wisdom is going to be better than 16.

In combat you will mostly be using spirit guardians / spiritual weapon and attacking. -Speaking of those spells, how are you getting them both out by turn 2 while casting shileleagh. You can't cast a 2 bonus action spells in a single round or 1 regular action spell and a bonus action cantrip. You can cast a bonus action spell and a cantrip though. So presumably there will be fights where your not able to cast shillelagh before making your first attack?

That's very unoptimized IMO - especially when you are effectively dumping your non-shilieleagh attack stat.

That's the whole point of doing this. You're buffing melee, range and spell casting and a better save category.

Yes - At the expense of a feat and terrible action economy (due to trying to do more things than possible on the first 2 turns of combat). - oh and let's not forget that you have the odd restriction that the PC must use the standard array which is a restriction that's always hard on dual stat builds.

It's basically plus two to hit, damage, spell DC's/attacks, a cantrip and a level 1 spell. And magic damage.

No. It's + 1. Even with standard array. Just take heavy armor master and start with 16 str 16 wis.

Until you bump your ASI you are doing the same as this non-shileleagh cleric. The moment you both bump ASI's which is looking like level 8 (due to wanting warcaster or resilient con) then you. At level 8 when you finally bump your first ASI you get 18 wisdom and he gets 18 str (assuming my original suggestion of splitting str and wis). And this is without factoring in the defensive boost that Heavy Armor Master provides.

So let's recap thus far by looking at a typical fight.

Turn 1: Cast spirit Guardians
Turn 2: Cast spiritual weapon and attack
Turn 3: attack and bonus action attack with spiritual weapon

At what turn and with which action/bonus action are you giving up to cast shileleagh?

A normal cleric is going to give up either spell DC or melee ability.

Your proposed build can't even use shileleagh in a fight without taking away one of the attacks the non-shileliagh cleric is doing.

-which is the reason I've always discounted shileleagh clerics.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yep! The Spheres were brilliant, that way. D&D casters had been syncretic nightmares, every Cleric with the exact same list, filled with inappropriate spells. Finally, you could define a priesthood with a somewhat sensible spell list.
Later, the Sorcerer accomplished something of the same order on the arcane side.
The elves Complete book was notoriously broken. But, the first 4 were very uneven. Fighters introduced Kits, mostly cosmetic, but cool. Thief, OTOH, the kits were desultory little things. Wizard had some kits like the Fighter, and a couple more involved ones with substantial powers.
But, in each case, they just gave you some kits to choose from.
CPH, OTOH, gave the DM a flexible system to create as many unique priesthoods as he cared to.

Erm the phb had rules on creating specialty priests and used the druid as an example. CPH not needed.

I'm a big fan of the 2E sphere system, the CPH was not the best example of it.

 

[Zardnaar]

Which amounts to a relatively tiny increase in the damage output of spirit guardians.



In combat you will mostly be using spirit guardians / spiritual weapon and attacking. -Speaking of those spells, how are you getting them both out by turn 2 while casting shileleagh. You can't cast a 2 bonus action spells in a single round or 1 regular action spell and a bonus action cantrip. You can cast a bonus action spell and a cantrip though. So presumably there will be fights where your not able to cast shillelagh before making your first attack?

That's very unoptimized IMO - especially when you are effectively dumping your non-shilieleagh attack stat.



Yes - At the expense of a feat and terrible action economy (due to trying to do more things than possible on the first 2 turns of combat). - oh and let's not forget that you have the odd restriction that the PC must use the standard array which is a restriction that's always hard on dual stat builds.



No. It's + 1. Even with standard array. Just take heavy armor master and start with 16 str 16 wis.

Until you bump your ASI you are doing the same as this non-shileleagh cleric. The moment you both bump ASI's which is looking like level 8 (due to wanting warcaster or resilient con) then you. At level 8 when you finally bump your first ASI you get 18 wisdom and he gets 18 str (assuming my original suggestion of splitting str and wis). And this is without factoring in the defensive boost that Heavy Armor Master provides.

So let's recap thus far by looking at a typical fight.

Turn 1: Cast spirit Guardians
Turn 2: Cast spiritual weapon and attack
Turn 3: attack and bonus action attack with spiritual weapon

At what turn and with which action/bonus action are you giving up to cast shileleagh?



Your proposed build can't even use shileleagh in a fight without taking away one of the attacks the non-shileliagh cleric is doing.

-which is the reason I've always discounted shileleagh clerics.

Cast shileleagh every round outside combat. It will always be up with 9 rounds renaing on its duration.

I think a lot of people Nova from the sound of it. If you're using spiritual weapon and guardians your going to be out if spells very quickly.

 

[FrogReaver]

Cast shileleagh every round outside combat. It will always be up with 9 rounds renaing on its duration.

1. The roleplay implications of doing such may be disastrous in many situations.
2. That can't be what you are doing with the cantrip in your games is it?

I think a lot of people Nova from the sound of it. If you're using spiritual weapon and guardians your going to be out if spells very quickly.

So you wouldn't unload those 2 spells in what you thought was a really hard fight?

 

[Zardnaar]

1. The roleplay implications of doing such may be disastrous in many situations.
2. That can't be what you are doing with the cantrip in your games is it?



So you wouldn't unload those 2 spells in what you thought was a really hard fight?

I would, but it's not something you can sustain. You can cast spiritual guardians the weapon but not vice versa?

And yes I had a player spam shilleagh outside combat. It's just easier to assume it's already on as RAW it works that way.

Hey I thought cantrips were stupid idea, preferring the 3.5 way of them. See guidance abuse as well.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Erm the phb had rules on creating specialty priests and used the druid as an example. CPH not needed.

You're 1/3rd right: the Druid was an example. The suggestions in the PH hardly rise to the level of guideline.

The CPH brought a complete, workable even, by the standard set by the rest of 2e, surprisingly well-balanced system.

I'm a big fan of the 2E sphere system, the CPH was not the best example of it.

Spheres were one of the best things in 2e, Domains hardly compare, and CPH had the most usable, consistent, and least broken implementation. The PH defined the spheres, but barely made use of them, the later 'specialty priests' were notoriously broken.

 

[Zardnaar]

You're 1/3rd right: the Druid was an example. The suggestions in the PH hardly rise to the level of guideline.

The CPH brought a complete, workable even, by the standard set by the rest of 2e, surprisingly well-balanced system.

Spheres were one of the best things in 2e, Domains hardly compare, and CPH had the most usable, consistent, and least broken implementation. The PH defined the spheres, but barely made use of them, the later 'specialty priests' were notoriously broken.

Some were but the CPH ones were not balanced either. I suggest you reread it they nerfed the cleric with the logic that it overpowered the new CPH ones most of which sucked. It's not like the cleric needed a Nerf.

Some if the CPH priests actually only have a single option for a spell, iirc at some levels they couldn't actually cast any spells as the spheres they had access to lacked a spell. 2 or 3 major access and 2 minor in crap spheres.

They didn't need the Druid play that instead. The spheres got revised later in 2Evas well due to crap like this as phb Druids couldn't cast Druid spells because they put the spell in the wrong sphere.

CPH was also basically obsolete once Tome of Magic came out, Spells and Magic tidied it up, and even Skills and Powers or the DMG design your own class was better than the CPH.

Seriously they made a spalt book that nerfed the cleric lol.
Tome of Magic also errata tweaked specialty wizards which were tweaked again in spells and magic.

Early 2E was not good for specialty priests and wizards. Mainly due to spell access and things like necromancer's not being able to create magic items.

 

[Tony Vargas]

That book outright sucked. It basically nerfed the cleric . It's not like the cleric was overpowered.

they nerfed the cleric with the logic that it overpowered the new CPH ones most of which sucked. It's not like the cleric needed a Nerf. .
Seriously they made a spalt book that nerfed the cleric lol.

I suppose that attitude is consistent with the title of the thread.

Some were but the CPH ones were not balanced either. I suggest you reread it

I used it extensively. Three of the PCs that finished out the second half of a my old AD&D campaign were playing CPH Priests, two of them hit 14th... the third was an MC Fighter and hit level limits.