Pramas on 4E and New Gamers
- Thread starter CaptainChaos
- Start date
outsider
First Post
Cadfan said:
Not to mention the flavor aspect. I'd rather be Conan than Merlin, yet I've never played a pure classed fighter type for more than 3 sessions in any edition of D&D. Why? Because they were so mechanically boring(with the exception of Book of 9 Swords classes, which I never got to play). In 4th ed though, it's likely that every character I play for the next several years will be martial.
Having a noob class is an absolutely TERRIBLE idea. I can't believe that sacred cow survived as long as it did.
Mark
CreativeMountainGames.com
edbonny said:
Don't be so modest. You're a high quality freelancer who has a decade long relationship with TSR/WotC/D&D. I'd imagine that relationship will continue with 4E, yes?
Here's the thing about newbie classes.
In 1e/2e, the fighter was he newbie class but what a lot of people forget is that I don't think you were SUPPOSED to keep playing with the fighter after level 11.
Notice Gygax's own gaming group where pretty much everybody was playing a spellcaster.
I honestly believe that Gygax never intended for people to actually PLAY non-spellcasters past level 11.
I think 2E should've allowed for people to change their characters at level 11.
In 1e/2e, the fighter was he newbie class but what a lot of people forget is that I don't think you were SUPPOSED to keep playing with the fighter after level 11.
Notice Gygax's own gaming group where pretty much everybody was playing a spellcaster.
I honestly believe that Gygax never intended for people to actually PLAY non-spellcasters past level 11.
I think 2E should've allowed for people to change their characters at level 11.
Aus_Snow
First Post
That's a pretty fair call, of course. However, a "new gamer" won't necessarily have had such experiences.Fenes said:
But quite a few, yeah probably.
Hm, I wonder what the crossover rate is, from MMORPG and CRPG to TTRPG. Either leaving one for the other, or taking up the latter in addition.
edit --- hadn't read a page and more back. . . well, never mind.
Last edited:
pogre
Legend
I agree with Pramas that the books are not a good way to attract new gamers. I'm not sure that is a huge criticism, but it is true.
I think a great way to get new players into the game would be a simple character creator. Not a spread sheet or something similar that merely makes the calculations, but literally a step-by-step creator that hides all of the rules and mechanics.
It would open with a brief animated example of play.
Next, it would ask the player which race he would like to play. The could click on a globe to see a picture of the race and get a little insight, like Dragonborn make excellent fighters and paladins and maybe a hint of background as well.
The player would click on the race they want.
Next, it would ask what class they want to play. Again, click on a globe to get an illustration of the class and a bit of information about what they do. Wizards cast mighty spells of fire or lightning or ensorcel the enemy to fight on their side. That kind of thing.
Once class is chosen - it would give the player some information on certain styles of play for the class. Such as, do you envision yourself as a "weapons platform" or a clever manipulating mage.*
*Obviously with a better description than I have used in my example.
Now, the player has chosen a class and a style of play - they are given a choice of powers and what they do.
The program picks skills, feats, equipment, and any other choices and then announces - push here to print your character. A complete character sheet is printed out along with a quick play cheat sheet.
Hand-in-hand with such a program would be a complete dungeon adventure that literally hand holds a new DM through the entire adventure. A dungeon is the best because it limits choices somewhat. The dungeon should get a party of five comfortably to second level. The adventure should explicitly tell new DMs to not worry about rules mistakes - just play and roll when in doubt.
The players can go back in the program and level up with choices given for powers - and again, all other choices being made by the program.
A second slightly more complex adventure might follow with more advice, but a little less hand-holding.
When the player goes back to go to third level they are informed that the program has made a lot of choices for them up to this point. It encourages the player to change any skill, feat, or even power choices they wish. Naturally, it directs them to the PHB.
By this time the player has already bought in to the game or not.
It would be really nice if the new player had access to a full character gen program too. Especially if a saved character could be ported from the newbie program to the complete program.
I would make the "newbie" program and the first adventure entirely free.
Others have praised the 3e beta char gen program and I agree it was helpful in getting folks jump started.
Given that WOTC has had a tough time in the electronics arena, I realize this is a pipe dream, but it would be great for new players.
I think a great way to get new players into the game would be a simple character creator. Not a spread sheet or something similar that merely makes the calculations, but literally a step-by-step creator that hides all of the rules and mechanics.
It would open with a brief animated example of play.
Next, it would ask the player which race he would like to play. The could click on a globe to see a picture of the race and get a little insight, like Dragonborn make excellent fighters and paladins and maybe a hint of background as well.
The player would click on the race they want.
Next, it would ask what class they want to play. Again, click on a globe to get an illustration of the class and a bit of information about what they do. Wizards cast mighty spells of fire or lightning or ensorcel the enemy to fight on their side. That kind of thing.
Once class is chosen - it would give the player some information on certain styles of play for the class. Such as, do you envision yourself as a "weapons platform" or a clever manipulating mage.*
*Obviously with a better description than I have used in my example.
Now, the player has chosen a class and a style of play - they are given a choice of powers and what they do.
The program picks skills, feats, equipment, and any other choices and then announces - push here to print your character. A complete character sheet is printed out along with a quick play cheat sheet.
Hand-in-hand with such a program would be a complete dungeon adventure that literally hand holds a new DM through the entire adventure. A dungeon is the best because it limits choices somewhat. The dungeon should get a party of five comfortably to second level. The adventure should explicitly tell new DMs to not worry about rules mistakes - just play and roll when in doubt.
The players can go back in the program and level up with choices given for powers - and again, all other choices being made by the program.
A second slightly more complex adventure might follow with more advice, but a little less hand-holding.
When the player goes back to go to third level they are informed that the program has made a lot of choices for them up to this point. It encourages the player to change any skill, feat, or even power choices they wish. Naturally, it directs them to the PHB.
By this time the player has already bought in to the game or not.
It would be really nice if the new player had access to a full character gen program too. Especially if a saved character could be ported from the newbie program to the complete program.
I would make the "newbie" program and the first adventure entirely free.
Others have praised the 3e beta char gen program and I agree it was helpful in getting folks jump started.
Given that WOTC has had a tough time in the electronics arena, I realize this is a pipe dream, but it would be great for new players.
Whatever happened to writing down the page number when you pick the power? I mean, all the spell sheets I saw for 3e had page numbers on them for further reference.Voadam said:How about:
"I'm a 25th level ranger multiclassed with warlord (named Aragorn), I'm not sure what level the power is or what type. Is it a feat? A class ability? A power? Race or magic item stuff? Something else?"
Ignoring that, both categorized (as in 4e) and alphabetical (as in 3e) division have their advantages. Categorized is better when creating/advancing characters, because you have all the relevant powers listed together. You see Burning Hands, Chill Strike, Force Orb, Icy Terrain, and Ray of Enfeeblement next to one another, so you can easily compare them. Alphabetical has its advantages during the game, if a monster description says something like "1/day - burning hands (caster level 5, DC 13)".
However, 4e has avoided that by making monsters have their abilities all spelled out in the stat block. The monster doesn't say "1/day - burning hands." It says "
Fan of Flames (standard; encounter) * Fire: Close blast 5; +5 vs Reflex; 2d6+3 fire damage; Miss half." There's no need to refer to the PHB or any other book after seeing that.By the time you have ground your way to 25th level, you are no longer a newbie gamer.
Of course, if you want to make 25th level characters from the outset, for your first campaign, that might be a problem. But this is very clearly not how D&D is usually played, nor is it something that the books recommend.
Of course, if you want to make 25th level characters from the outset, for your first campaign, that might be a problem. But this is very clearly not how D&D is usually played, nor is it something that the books recommend.
