Pramas on 4E and New Gamers

[med stud]

I don't know how important it is for a game to be newb- friendly. I started playing RPGs with MERP when I was 8 years old. We didn't get many things right, but the feeling of adventure was enough to hook us. Then we moved on to other games, we got older and smarter but we lost much of the imagination.

I think children compensates for not understanding the rules by having fantasy and imagination. I also think few children have understood all the rules, yet they play. If you want to hook an adult, it is most likely by a friend introducing them. I have a hard time seeing a 30 year old with no previous experience and no gaming friends picking up a PHB on a whim.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

One of those things is not like the other. I don't need opportunity attacks and minor actions and shifts and blasts to be an elf wizard who kills monsters to take their stuff.

Heavily tactical combat is a complicated monstrosity at the core of D&D, and simplifying it, whatever else it would do, would go a long way toward making the game easy and accessible for newbs who don't want to fiddle with math and little plastic toys.



That's when you get into trouble trying to define what D&D really is, when its boiled down to its raw essence. In some peoples' mind, 4e is D&D trying to become something its not, because D&D is lawful good gold dragons and the plane of Concordant Opposition and strongly simulationist.

I'm more willing to stretch D&D to just being: "A game of fantasy storytelling." For that, you do not need complex combat.

Now, others might say that D&D is actually "A tactical combat game with fantasy trappings." They'd be right, in their own way. But certainly there are milages that vary.

The question is, is "fantasy storytelling" really that exciting for a beginner? "Huh? Storytelling? Like around a campfire? Why do I need a rulebook for that?".

I think the tactical combat, the minis, and all that is actually what might make someone interested at all. Because they see it is a game, and people know that games requires rules. Storytelling does not.

Astoundingly, despite this only been 8-9 years ago, I don't know what really got me into role-playing in the first place. I think the mix of being able to play a fictional person was important. It was not just the telling of a story of this person that was important. It was also important it was a game in which I could use this person.

(For the record: My Gateway game was Shadowrun.)

 

[xechnao]

The question is, is "fantasy storytelling" really that exciting for a beginner? "Huh? Storytelling? Like around a campfire? Why do I need a rulebook for that?".

I think the tactical combat, the minis, and all that is actually what might make someone interested at all. Because they see it is a game, and people know that games requires rules. Storytelling does not.

Astoundingly, despite this only been 8-9 years ago, I don't know what really got me into role-playing in the first place. I think the mix of being able to play a fictional person was important. It was not just the telling of a story of this person that was important. It was also important it was a game in which I could use this person.

(For the record: My Gateway game was Shadowrun.)

I disagree 100%. Fantasy is or at least started as a narrative genre. People get attracted to D&D due to fantasy, not being a game. Now if a fantasy product manages to be fun it will sell. Tabletop roleplaying games, computer games, card games, miniature games. If what you really like is what you are describing above why don't you just play chess?

 

[Fenes]

It's the mix of combat and storytelling that he describes. And I think that's what attracts people - if they just wanted a story, they'd read (or write) a story. If they just wanted a game, there are tons of games.

 

[hong]

I disagree 100%. Fantasy is or at least started as a narrative genre. People get attracted to D&D due to fantasy, not being a game. Now if a fantasy product manages to be fun it will sell. Tabletop roleplaying games, computer games, card games, miniature games. If what you really like is what you are describing above why don't you just play chess?

Because chess isn't viscerally violent enough.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

People are saying, the first time they sat down with the 4e PHB, that they get to page after page of very similar powers, the effects of which and the differences between which they do not yet comprehend, and their eyes glaze over. It's informational overload. It's also boring as hell to read little blurbs of attack after attack that all do just about the same thing. I hit this when I first saw the PHB and ended up just skipping the walls of text. A friend of mine made a similar comment after trying to read the book.

Once you have a feel for the system, the powers make sense, and they're easy to digest in little levelling-up chunks, as you're never looking at more than 4 at a time. To read through 80 of them in a row is a different matter.

See, I think this is brilliant document design. Or at least competent document design which is way beyond what you find in most of the hobby.

Skipping the walls of text is what you're supposed to do. As a new player you don't need to read anything more than the first two pages of any class description, and the section is nicely arranged by tabs so that you can skip between sections.

Once you've picked your class, you bookmark that section and you live there. No need to flip more than 15 pages to understand any aspect of your class in play. When you level you move a few pages over in either direction to do feats or the general levelling table.

The only other section you need in play is the combat section which is nestled right up next to the back cover making it very easy to reference.

My problem with Pramas' review is that it relies on a fairly simple analysis of document design. On a basic level a game manual should not be designed to be read, it needs to be designed to be used.

I think this is really more a problem for old hands at DnD who are too used to be brutalized by horrible document design to recognize how the book is actually asking to be used.

 

[xechnao]

It's the mix of combat and storytelling that he describes. And I think that's what attracts people - if they just wanted a story, they'd read (or write) a story. If they just wanted a game, there are tons of games.

Don't get it. What do you mean by combat? Isn't combat a theme of storytelling? And storytelling or narration does not limit it self in english. Whatever manages to communicate a plot (even visual 2d or even 3d stimulus) are valid tools of storytelling.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I do agree with Pramas's point on examples, but those might actually be better used if published in different products.

The PHB functions best as a recruiting tool by working as a great reference tool.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I disagree 100%. Fantasy is or at least started as a narrative genre. People get attracted to D&D due to fantasy, not being a game. Now if a fantasy product manages to be fun it will sell. Tabletop roleplaying games, computer games, card games, miniature games. If what you really like is what you are describing above why don't you just play chess?

Because I didn't get into the game just for the rules, as I said. I also liked they idea of playing a person. I don't want to play a peasant on the chess board. That's not a person, it's a game piece.

 

[xechnao]

Because I didn't get into the game just for the rules, as I said. I also liked they idea of playing a person. I don't want to play a peasant on the chess board. That's not a person, it's a game piece.

So imagination or storytelling are important points of attraction for you to buy the product. See?