Pramas on 4E and New Gamers

[Imaro]

That it makes it even easier to DM than anything produced in the last, oh, 20 years.



If people can get invested enough in WoW to learn half a dozen feat chains macros, they can get invested enough in D&D to learn half a dozen powers.

See this is your problem. You keep taking individual pieces and comparing them as an experienced gamer, when they should be looked at as a whole through the eyes of a new person.

I actually believe with 4e's more tactics based gameplay a new player really needs to understand combat (as the rules define it) in more depth than ever before to have an enjoyable experience. It can't really be played as a casual bash the monsters game or you'll end up dead. IMO, facilitating both styles of play would have increased the audience for new players. Once again a "basic" set and maybe an advanced combat options book.

 

[Maggan]

Not in this world. They invest tons to promote the hardware console to the market but the revenue comes from video games. The supplements Wizards sells are not even comparable to this as an idea.

Yeah, you're right there. WotC money comes from their "console". Forgot about that. Maybe one could argue that minis is what the "core rules console" is supposed to push, but that might be stretching it a bit. I actually think that the upcoming D&D Minis 2.0 will be a better starting experience for D&D than the core rules themselves.

A bit about video games. It should also be noted that while a lot of revenue for those who make the consoles comes from the video games, many, many video games are commercial failures, or pipe products. They need to exist so that we can see the Halos of our time. And there are many video games that are so arcanely designed that they are even more difficult to get into than D&D4e.

Developing a successful video game is very difficult, and not something you just knock out and put on a shelf. At least not according to my own experience.

/M

 

[xechnao]

A bit about video games. It should also be noted that while a lot of revenue for those who make the consoles comes from the video games, many, many video games are commercial failures, or pipe products. They need to exist so that we can see the Halos of our time. And there are many video games that are so arcanely designed that they are even more difficult to get into than D&D4e.

Developing a successful video game is very difficult, and not something you just knock out and put on a shelf. At least not according to my own experience.

/M

Who said differently?

We were talking about cross market marketing. Say mountain vacations versus sea vacations. Not sea coasts. It is common ground that some coasts have tourists and others not.

 

[Fenes]

See this is your problem. You keep taking individual pieces and comparing them as an experienced gamer, when they should be looked at as a whole through the eyes of a new person.

I actually believe with 4e's more tactics based gameplay a new player really needs to understand combat (as the rules define it) in more depth than ever before to have an enjoyable experience. It can't really be played as a casual bash the monsters game or you'll end up dead. IMO, facilitating both styles of play would have increased the audience for new players. Once again a "basic" set and maybe an advanced combat options book.

And I keep saying that a "new player" will 9 times out of 10 already be familiar with tactical combat from other games, especially computer games such as WoW - or DDO and NWN, which model 3E closely.

 

[hong]

See this is your problem. You keep taking individual pieces and comparing them as an experienced gamer, when they should be looked at as a whole through the eyes of a new person.

In this day and age, there is nobody who is a "new person". They all know WoW. Or if not WoW, then Ninja Gaiden, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid, or Devil May Cry.

I actually believe with 4e's more tactics based gameplay a new player really needs to understand combat (as the rules define it) in more depth than ever before to have an enjoyable experience. It can't really be played as a casual bash the monsters game or you'll end up dead.

Nonsense. If the DM is dumb, that cancels out the players being dumb. Having more levers to pull and buttons to push also makes for a more involving game, and if our first KotS session is a guide, 4E combat runs smooth as silk. It really is that simple in play.

 

[med stud]

Yes. We are not comparing D&D versus other tabletop rpgs here. We are comparing tabletop rpgs and especially D&D with other markets. In this respect -across market marketing- video games are far easier to market than tabletop rpgs. If it were not the case the tabletop market would be bigger than the video game market.

Tabletop RPGs will never be bigger than videogames. You can always play a videogame, you don't need to arrange a meeting with other people to play a videogame and if you play videogames with your friends, one of the players doesn't have to do a lot of preparation. That much is right. You are right in that statistically, a kid is more likely to get a videogame than a PHB.

On the other hand, there are people that want to play tabletop RPGs. When they are introduced to them, they are hooked. A subsector of the ones who want to play TT RPGs want to run games, create worlds and have an ongoing story, no matter how simple. Those people don't want to buy a videogame instead since a videogame doesn't provide that experience.

Also, videogames and TT RPGs aren't an either/or- situation. First of all, RPGs are cheap. As hong said, the three core books cost what one console game costs and compared to for example skiing or a night out, it's dirt cheap. My new players are all from a MMORPG-background and they haven't stopped playing WoW because they started with TT RPGs.

 

[TheLe]

I've been telling people for weeks now that the organization of the book is HIDEOUS.

Page 14 of the PHB is a perfect example of this. To create a character, here are the steps:
1. Choose Race. Chapter 3.
2. Choose Class. Chapter 4.
3. Determine Ability Scores. Chapter 2.
4. Choose Skills. Chapter 5.
5. Select Feats. Chapter 6.
6. Choose Powers. Chapter 4.
7. Choose Equipment. Chapter 7.
8. Fill in the Numbers. Chapter 2.
9. Roleplaying Character Details. Chapter 2.

What? So I am starting with chapter 3, then ending with chapter 2? So, the chapter steps are: 3, 4, 2, 5, 6, 4, 7, 2, 2?

Geeeezzzz..

~Le

 

[Fenes]

Not to mention that parents are generally more likely to pay for a book, and a game that involves their kid meeting other kids (and in a safe enviroment, meaning at one's home) than for a video game.

 

[Drammattex]

I think the gateway games are things like Magic and DDM.

The new DDM is an excellent gateway. Its simplified rules work very, very close to the way combat works in the 4e RPG. Once you have a grasp on those, you have a very good feel of the mechanics; if the interest is there, it's a pretty smooth transition to the PHB classes.

 

[med stud]

I actually believe with 4e's more tactics based gameplay a new player really needs to understand combat (as the rules define it) in more depth than ever before to have an enjoyable experience. It can't really be played as a casual bash the monsters game or you'll end up dead. IMO, facilitating both styles of play would have increased the audience for new players. Once again a "basic" set and maybe an advanced combat options book.

No. The only thing a casual player needs to know is what his/her PC can do. If the DM knows how things work, that's enough.

If neither the DM or the player knows how it works they will play with the wrong rules until someone discovers how it really works. It was exactly like that when I started playing MERP (we were eight years old, we didn't get a thing right. MERP is not beginner-friendly ).