PrC: Black Healer (needs balancing)

[las]

um if your going with lay on hands you might whant to do what the paladin has. Cha bonus times level (in this Prc in this cass).

Ok so lets say you have a 20 Cha and 10 levels in the Prc that would give you a lay on hands healing of 50 (5 x 10).

But if you whant something just slitly different you could do this (Wis bonus + Cha) x level in this Prc giving double the paladin might have at the same level. Thus by chance a Charater has a 20 wis and 20 cha as well as 10 level in this class. He would heal 100 hp (Which 20th level paladins can do that if there luky). What do you think of that idea. Also means it means you need high strors in those abilitys for the class to work and do amazing things.

The fast healing thing you can have it go up to +3.

Level 2: Fast healing 1
Level 5: Fast healing 2
Level 8: Fast healing 3

(these few changes will be realy good if you then push this to epic play.)

 

[Technik4]

But can a fighter 5 take this class? Heal isnt on his list...maybe you have a "cosmopolitan" or equvielent feat, but the main point is noone is really getting into this class at the lowest level possible except maybe a druid.

So for a really high level fighter whos been spending 2 sp a level to get the heal requirements it may be a good option, but they would still lose some bab (which is the fighters bread and butter, as they can turn it into damage or ac). And they wont have the will minimum of 5 for quite a long time...unless they multiclass.

With your prereqs of "Will Save +5 or higher, Heal skill ranks 5+, Skill Focus: Heal, flavor text yadda yadda." the only thing getting in early is a Cleric or Druid, at 5th. It takes quite a bit to nail that Will req (unless you allow wisdom bonus, which means people can get in as early as 2nd level...). If you want fighters to take this class, add a BAB req.

My point was, fighters arent taking this class, because most fighters are getting more feats, multi-ing to get some spells, or taking a fighter prestige class. Hence, anyone that takes it will NOT definitely have heavy armor.

Let me put it this way, if you take away Fast Healing are you left with any "toughness"? Another thing I'd like to point out is that after you actually get Fast Healing the number becomes less important (ie at 20th level it doesnt matter if you have Fast Healing 3 or Fast Healing 5, the point is, you have fast healing). And allow me to reiterate that Fast Healing = Regeneration.

I could see Fast Healing while in swamp or underground terrain, but thats about it.

Thanks for the discussion topic, it was fun to pick apart!

Technik

PS- If youd like further balancing, try to make 3 different characters with varying levels of the prc. Then just compare them as if they had regular levels of their class (or other prcs).

 

[seasong]

Note: class was editted while you were posting this. Some of what you comment on has changed. I'm replying to the rest .

So for a really high level fighter whos been spending 2 sp a level to get the heal requirements it may be a good option, but they would still lose some bab (which is the fighters bread and butter, as they can turn it into damage or ac). And they wont have the will minimum of 5 for quite a long time...unless they multiclass.

Skill 5 is reached at level 7.
Skill 4 (what it has been revised to) is reached at level 5.

Let me put it this way, if you take away Fast Healing are you left with any "toughness"?

Aside from d10 hit die, lay on hands?

Another thing I'd like to point out is that after you actually get Fast Healing the number becomes less important (ie at 20th level it doesnt matter if you have Fast Healing 3 or Fast Healing 5, the point is, you have fast healing). And allow me to reiterate that Fast Healing = Regeneration.

Allow me to reiterate: I know.

The comment about 1 vs 2 is good, though. I'm dropping the fast healing/2.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Does Dragon Magazine put out special issues with classes, or something? (sorry, I don't get the magazine, so I don't know it very well). And how many pages is a Class Act, usually?

A class act is usually two pages written by Monte Cook with an illustration over the left hand column of the first page. Pretty neat-o. Your class catches that j'ai ne sais quoi of a truly great PrC.

 

[seasong]

A class act is usually two pages written by Monte Cook with an illustration over the left hand column of the first page. Pretty neat-o. Your class catches that j'ai ne sais quoi of a truly great PrC.

Hm.. Checked over their submission guidelines, might be interesting to try. However, the black healer is already a hair below 3 full pages, magazine style (2500+ words). And it's semi-published here on the message board.

Still, I dunno. I might send them a proposal paragraph, and a note on my concerns (length, existence on a website) and see what they say. I'll need to make sure it's tight, first .

Edit: Note that, just in case I do, I've put a record of your usernames up in the PrC . Don't want to forget y'all!

 

[Shadow64]

seasong, if you make a "final" version of this PrC can you either post it or e-mail it? I'd really like to use this PrC at some point. Thanks!

 

[seasong]

Sure thing. I'm planning to go through the black healer one more time, and then post a finalized version. I'll try to apply the Technik4 litmus test, of course .

 

[seasong]

The final version is posted. Mostly small edits, with a few reasonably significant ones:

- Profession (Herbalist) and Know (Physiology) replaced with Profession (Black Healer).
- Cure Disease DCs upped just a tidbit after player feedback.
- Added a listing of classes that might try for this PrC.

Thank all of you for your feedback!

 

[Technik4]

Nice

Congrats, I like the way its turned out. Only 1 thing I still take issue with (Ive gotten over Fast Healing ) and thats using skill bonus instead of skill ranks for the lay/smack hands. Oh and heres my 3 characters:

A)

This is a rather diplomatic member thanks to the FRCS Cosmopolitan feat. A diplomat with his eyes to the common folk he met her and has become a thorn against people turning a blind eye to the suffering of the poor. Now he wanders the land with his cohort, helping where he can.

Human Mnk7/BHl 2
(Pre Black Healer) Base Fort or Will: +5
Feats: Cosmopolitan- (Heal + Sense Motive), Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist, Skill Focus: Heal, Iron Will, Weapon Focus- Unarmed, Improved Trip, Leadership.

Skills: Heal 18+wis, Diplomacy 10+cha, Listen 10+wis, Profession (Herbalist) 5+wis, Profession (Black Healer) 5+wis, Sense Motive 11+wis, Swim 5+str.

Stat Arrangement: High Wis, High Str, Good Cha, Good Con, Low Dex, Low Int.

Why it might be broke? Assuming a 20 wis (including items, not out of the question for a 9th level monk) and a 16 cha (this monk is geared to power the lay/smack ability) he can add 23 damage to a punch 3 times a day. Alternately, he can heal himself for 69 points of damage, just from black healer levels, and another 14 from monk levels.

A 9th level paladin (with 16 cha) can lay on hands for 27 hp, and doesnt have the option to use it to inflict. His smite is at +3 for +9 points of damage...1 time per day, against evil creatures. I didnt even use +skill items, just skill synergies and skill focus. My recomendation? Make the healing based on ranks, not total bonus.


B)
Minmaxed black healer.

Pal 2/Ftr 1/BHl 5
(Pre Black Healer) Base Fort +5
Feats: Skill Focus: Heal, Iron Will, and whatever
Skills: Heal 4+ ranks, and whatever

Obviously, getting in at 3rd level isnt your intention, the only hampering thing in the prereqs as written is the DC 20 fear save, which the paladin levels negate. My recomendation? Just put a BAB minimum, it will set the lowest possible fighter you want to be in your class, and it can't be circumvented like saves can.


C)

Taking care of the swamplands outside her mountains is her charge. Monstrous humanoids have moved in and are using foul magics to de-swamp the land, she cares for the creatures of the swamp and her kin in a nearby mountain by resolutely standing her ground.

Dwarf Drd 6/BHl 6/DwD 6
(Pre Black Healer) Base Fort or Will +5
Feats: Skill Focus: Heal, Iron Will, Endurance, Toughness, Dodge, Faster Healing (Increased Rest benefits, as per the chart in MotW), Greater Resilency (+1 Damage Reduction, MotW).

Skills: Heal 21+wis, Intuit Direction 3+wis, Listen 6+wis, Profession (Herbalist) 5+wis, Profession (Black Healer) 5+wis, Spot 6+wis, Swim 15+str, Wilderness Lore 15+wis.

Stat Arrangement: High Con, High Wis, Good Str, Good Cha, Low Dex, Low Int.

Why it might be broke? This was one of the better scenarios I could think of using Fast Healing. Between Damage Reduction 4/- and Fast Healing 1, it will take a lot of concentrated effort to take her down. This character also sports very high hp. I think this is the most balanced of the characters I came up with, probably a fun character to play/adventure with.

Overall making these characters I noticed 2 things. 1, int was sort of a dump stat for them. They didnt need to worry about int at all for your class, whereas wisdom and charisma (and constitution) were more high priority. Maybe base how many potions can be made per day on your int modifier, minimum 1.

Another thing is that by simply giving fast healing from MotW at some point, it reduces the additional work of making heal checks for care on yourself (which youll probably succeed at anyway).

Finally, with both the characters (and had I gone through with the min/maxer) I tried to maximize heal checks. This means absolutely take 5 in profession (herbalist) and 5 in profession (black healer). Personally, I would drop profession (black healer) and maybe require a few ranks of profession (herbalist) to get into the class, most of the characters might end up taking it anyway. Is there much difference between a black healer and an herbalist anyway? (Im generally of the opinion that there are too many know, craft, and prof skills as it is...).

Which brings us to basing the healing bonus on total ranks. I hope I illustrated how quickly that mechanic can become broken, basing it off of rank x Cha is still very powerful (imo) since at the lowest level you can get into the class (assuming you put a BAB restriction of +6) is about 8 for a straight druid by 10th character level (8 drd, 2 black healer) you have 13 heal ranks. Thats 13 x Cha compared to a paladins 10 x Cha. A lot more balanced imo.

With the BAB restriction just remember, you are setting the lowest possible fighter you want to take this class. Unfortunately, classes without that great of BAB will have to wait a little longer to take it, or multiclass.

Everything looks great, I think its almost perfect

Technik

 

[seasong]

Re: Nice

Congrats, I like the way its turned out. Only 1 thing I still take issue with (Ive gotten over Fast Healing ) and thats using skill bonus instead of skill ranks for the lay/smack hands.

I completely agree that it's reasonably powerful as written. However, as a DM, I'd be pretty comfortable with its power level. I'll comment more on this below.

Also, I liked these brief character outlines. They had good roleplaying potential.

This is a rather diplomatic member thanks to the FRCS Cosmopolitan feat. A diplomat with his eyes to the common folk he met her and has become a thorn against people turning a blind eye to the suffering of the poor. Now he wanders the land with his cohort, helping where he can.

I don't own any FR books (and don't use them - no OGL), but Cosmopolitan looks like an interesting way to get the Heal in.

Skills: Heal 18+wis, Diplomacy 10+cha, Listen 10+wis, Profession (Herbalist) 5+wis, Profession (Black Healer) 5+wis, Sense Motive 11+wis, Swim 5+str.

Heal total should equal 21 (12 ranks, +2 synergy bonus, +5 WIS bonus, +2 skill focus)

Note regarding Herbalist/Black Healer professions: Profession (Herbalist) was something we made up. I replaced it with the Profession (Black Healer). You can call it whatever you want, but I'd rule that black healer profession subsumes and includes the herbalist profession.

Why it might be broke? Assuming a 20 wis (including items, not out of the question for a 9th level monk) and a 16 cha (this monk is geared to power the lay/smack ability) he can add 23 damage to a punch 3 times a day. Alternately, he can heal himself for 69 points of damage, just from black healer levels, and another 14 from monk levels.

21 skill x +3 CHA bonus = 63 hp of cure/inflict, max 21 in one round (for a monk unarmed strike, 1d8+21)

Pretty nasty, but the character only gets 3 of those a day, and at 9th level, he should be facing things that can take it. Indeed, at 9th level, the wizard in the group can dish out some 32 HP per round (average), at range, to an entire group of foes.

If you reversed the high scores (although with a monk base, that might be foolish) you could get 19 skill x +5 CHA bonus = 95 hp of cure/inflict, max 19 in one round. That's still not comparable to what the real damage inflicters in the party dish, however.

A 9th level paladin (with 16 cha) can lay on hands for 27 hp, and doesnt have the option to use it to inflict. His smite is at +3 for +9 points of damage...1 time per day, against evil creatures. I didnt even use +skill items, just skill synergies and skill focus. My recomendation? Make the healing based on ranks, not total bonus.

I'd prefer that the black healer be better at this than a paladin. I can see why some DMs might not be comfortable with it, but really, I think they will be the exception - the black healer needs to be good at what he does.

Minmaxed black healer.

Pal 2/Ftr 1/BHl 5
(Pre Black Healer) Base Fort +5
Feats: Skill Focus: Heal, Iron Will, and whatever
Skills: Heal 4+ ranks, and whatever

Ah, you bastard! You broke it!

Hm. Maybe just require a certain number of skill points put into Heal, instead of a final rank result? Any comments on that?

As for the fear effect... I'd heartily recommend that paladins (who are supposed to be icons of courage, devotion and duty) get a "by" into that aspect, simply because they are, by definition, appropriate to the role.

A poorly role-played paladin (one who doesn't fit Her requirements) should have already lost their paladinhood... and thus the Aura of Courage.

Overall making these characters I noticed 2 things. 1, int was sort of a dump stat for them. They didnt need to worry about int at all for your class, whereas wisdom and charisma (and constitution) were more high priority. Maybe base how many potions can be made per day on your int modifier, minimum 1.

INT is still useful for skills. Otherwise, INT is about as useful to the black healer as it is to barbarians, clerics, druids, fighters, monks, paladins, rangers and sorcerers.

Another thing is that by simply giving fast healing from MotW at some point, it reduces the additional work of making heal checks for care on yourself (which youll probably succeed at anyway).

MotW?

Which brings us to basing the healing bonus on total ranks. I hope I illustrated how quickly that mechanic can become broken, basing it off of rank x Cha is still very powerful (imo) since at the lowest level you can get into the class (assuming you put a BAB restriction of +6) is about 8 for a straight druid by 10th character level (8 drd, 2 black healer) you have 13 heal ranks. Thats 13 x Cha compared to a paladins 10 x Cha. A lot more balanced imo.

Well, to me at least, all you demonstrated was that it can dish out some damage. "Broken" implies something a bit beyond dishing an average of 25.5 damage 3 times per day, in a system where the real damage dealers (wizards/sorcerers) can dish more damage, more often, at range. Someone who wanted this class just for the damage dealing is making a mistake.

With the BAB restriction just remember, you are setting the lowest possible fighter you want to take this class. Unfortunately, classes without that great of BAB will have to wait a little longer to take it, or multiclass.

Yeah, that's the painful part. Need to think about it.

Again, thanks for your commentary!