PrC: Black Healer (needs balancing)

[seasong]

Re: Criticism

A) Is lay on hands/inflict w/ hands based on ranks or total bonus?

Uh... I dunno. Whichever way the Paladin does it.

B) Why do you have stat restrictions for a prc?

Wilderness Lore doesn't really fit as a prereq. Although I could probably change WIS to a Will save prereq (including WIS bonus) rather than straight WIS.

For CHR, I should probably drop that.

C) Why isnt profession (or even just profession (herbalist) on the class skill list?

Because I'm an idiot . Thanks!

And heres why its underpowered (based on who I think would take it):

I disagree. As currently written, the black healer is hard to kill, makes the party hard to kill, and it can make a number of potions cheap. If the character started as a fighter, they can put on the heavy plate, carry a good weapon, and do decently toe-to-toe when needed.

Barbarians: Actually, I think this balances pretty well. A barbarian 10 who goes into black healer will still be better than a cleric in a fight, will have some water options no one else has, and can heal pretty good.

Rangers: Personally, I don't think it suits the ranger too well - giving up spells is always hard.

Druids: Druids would be giving up a lot of spell casting, and can do some of the stuff already (breathe water, etc.), although for more limited periods of time.

Clerics: A cleric already devoted to Her, in my opinion, should just swap levels between the PrC and Cleric: Her.

To restate something from earlier: this class is not intended for spell casters.

Fear Resistance should eventually become Fear Immunity.

Hm.. Maybe as part of the optional "take on more traits" thing. I could give the alien mind penalty to social stuff at 5th level, and fear immunity at 10th level.

Anyone have balance comments on that?

I dislike Fast Healing. I dont think there is a single magic item which gives this ability, and even the spells that resemble it are very high level. I would advocate Acid Resistance or even Damage Reduction (for those potential barbs) before Fast Healing.

Fast Healing is reasonably powerful. However, compared to the damage being dished out at 11th level and up, it's not really that awe-inspiring.

Acid resistance doesn't fit very well. DR might; maybe magical DR 5/+1, described as "non-magical wounds partially heal as soon as they hit".

Overall there is not much that affects combat.

d10 hit points, cleric's BAB, fast healing, Lay on Inflict... and the ability to make some buffing potions reasonably cheaply. Hm, I think it may need some combat nerfing.

WRT people jumping at the class... I don't want people jumping at it. From a character design point of view, choosing a class should be hard, not easy. If people are jumping at the class, I've made it too good. They should try to get it only if they have a good, solid, in-character reason for wanting it, not because it makes them more effective in combat.

 

[seasong]

I like the revision, seasong. And I particularly like the optional stuff -- good toolbox for lower or higher fantasy games.

Thanks . I'm writing this at least in part because I want to show how a published PrC should be - 500-2000 words of flavor text, solid peer review, and consideration for how it can be adjusted for any given GM's campaign.

I also think it should be carefully balanced, which is why I listed peer review, since I'm not so good at the system concerns .

If you decide that Technik4's concerns about combat prowess are well-founded, how about poison use/manufacturing ability? I forget, is that considered purely evil in D&D3? (If so: Bah.) If it's not, it seems in-flavour and easily customizeable to the level of combat prowess needed.

Already there. Check out the potion making ability - level 8, a potion of poison. That's a nasty durned thing to have resemble minty tea.

For lesser poisons, personally, I'd just have it be a skill function (perhaps profession: apothecary).

And check my reply - personally, I think it's swung over the top a bit, and needs brought down, but I'd like to hear some second opinions first.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Already there. Check out the potion making ability - level 8, a potion of poison. That's a nasty durned thing to have resemble minty tea.

Sure. I meant a "poison you put on weapons," though. And the thingie that assassins get that means you don't have a chance of stupidly poisoning yourself when you apply a poison to a weapon. Not that that would matter after level 4, presumeably.

And check my reply - personally, I think it's swung over the top a bit, and needs brought down, but I'd like to hear some second opinions first.

Well, here's my opinion:

I don't think it needs to be kicked down.

It may be "overpowered," depending on what power you consider healing to have, but it's really got little besides healing. It has some difficult-to-use potions (yeah, they're powerful, but getting an enemy to drink something is difficult for some, impossible for others), and it's got some water-related stuff (not highly important in most games), and it's got some fairly low-powered immunities. So, ultimately, what it's got most of is healing.

Healing is strong, but it's also pretty boring -- even relatively flavourful healing like what the Black Healer's got. And it's party-oriented, so it doesn't cause much in the way of stealing the spotlight. Fundamentally, nobody's going to come crying and say, "That darn Black Healer is so overpowered! He keeps healing the party! When do I get to heal the party?"

The only things I'd even consider nerfing would be the buff potions (Bull's Strength and Endurance) and maybe the inflict -- I've been lazy and haven't quite figured out if that can be twinked to be gross. I guess it'd matter depending on whether it is skill level or ranks. But even if that can be twinked, I'm still not sure that I'd nerf it.

 

[seasong]

Urg. I messed up. Heal is not a class skill for practically anyone who might take this, so those ranks are harder to get than I thought. Any suggestions on prereqs? I was thinking maybe changing them to this:

Will Save +5 or higher, Heal skill ranks 5+, Skill Focus: Heal, flavor text yadda yadda.

Also, here's my analysis of the skill ranks/skill level issue:

A fighter 5/black healer 5 can manage 10 ranks of Know (Physiology). Assuming that INT and CHR are the two highest attributes the character has, and that the character took Skill Focus: Know (Physiology) here are various damage output and damage/day:

[color=skyblue][b]Based On Skill (INT and CHR matter)[/b]
INT 14 (total skill 14), CHR 20 (x5): 70 hp/day, no more than 14/touch
INT 16 (total skill 15), CHR 18 (x4): 60 hp/day, no more than 15/touch
INT 18 (total skill 16), CHR 16 (x3): 48 hp/day, no more than 16/touch
INT 20 (total skill 17), CHR 14 (x2): 34 hp/day, no more than 17/touch

[b]Based On Ranks (only CHR matters)[/b]
CHR 20 (total ranks 10, x5): 50 hp/day, no more than 10/touch[/color]

Personally, I think that the twinkage aspect is okay for skill-based.

Sure. I meant a "poison you put on weapons," though. And the thingie that assassins get that means you don't have a chance of stupidly poisoning yourself when you apply a poison to a weapon. Not that that would matter after level 4, presumeably.

Oh, right. Hm. I think I'm going to leave that one out - making poisons is one thing, but the skills of handling a poison-edged blade don't seem to fit terribly well.

 

[Technik4]

Your example included heavy armor, but that is not given by your prc. It is a difficult prc to get into unless Heal is on your class list (not barbarian, bard, fighter, monk, rogue, sorceror, or wizard), and seems really weird for a paladin. That leaves clerics, druids, and rangers none of whom would get their spells. You definitely arent adequately compensating for spell loss

Lay on Hands for paladin is determined by Paladin Levels x Cha bonus. I would suggest you tie it to skill ranks (not bonus) as someone who acquires a Torc of Might Physiology +20 would be rather broken The other option is to tie it to Black Healer levels (which weakens it substantially). I also have an alternate suggestion.

If you change it to Will Save I would again advise making it base will save. This prevents someone with a cloak of resistance or someone who took Iron Will from getting admittance.

The black healer is arguably "difficult" to kill. He has no buffs (except potions, which dont last as long as spells (usually) and require xp), he gets no access to additional feats (which may increase his AC), no natural armor, and as written no Damage Reduction. He does have fast healing (at 5th).

So basically 4 levels of Paladin and 4 levels of Black Healer are nearly equal to kill, which rates right about (maybe a little below)where clerics are (due to pre-cast buffs and spells cast during combat). If you base the Lay on Hands off paladins, it is even weaker as at 4th level you can heal 4xCha bonus. For a 10th level character (6something/4black healer), healing (or dishing out) an extra 8-12 points of damage a day is nothing. A 10th level cleric can cast 5th level spells.

You give many interesting abilities, but in general they are trumped by spells or a wild shape use. Herbal Poultice becomes a weak Cure Moderate Wounds (at 8th prc, or roughly 14th level which is 7th level spells - resurrection).

This is how I break down every ability:

Class Skills: A decent list, as someone else suggested some of the physical skills dont seem out of place. 4+int is a good skill bonus for this class.

No special armor/weapons.

Weak (or overpowered) Lay/Smack on Hands. This is a good ability, maybe if at higher levels they got an additional use or two?

Herbal Poultice is weak. This ability has a lot of flavor, but as I read it, seems too weak, 1d4 hp may not even revive a dying character (though it will stop the bleeding). and at its max its still only 2d8+10, which is a second level cleric spell cast at 10th level, but it must be prepared once each time for each party member.

Herbal Remedies reduces the time characters spend in an inn. ...Its a nice ability and all, but it doesnt add up to too much imo.

Brew Herbal Remedies is a good ability. Its more powerful than Brew Potion, in that you can make 3/day and the price is low. However, it is purely defensive, I dont know how you would get a monster to drink some tea so they may be held, and slay living and poison just seem outright underhanded and devious. Poison the soup of your enemy? The buffs and healing spells are good, but will inherently put a drain on the black healer's resources. 1250 a pop for one of the best potions is still one of many free slots a cleric or druid has...and the levels are equal at best.

Know (Plant Lore) designed for this class could be Profession (herbalist) or Know (Nature) imo. Its good flavor, but it doesnt add much.

Swamp Adaptation is decent. It is the core of the class, and adds some worthwhile benefits, but nothing that will turn the tide for the party, save the day when things look bleak (except maybe save the black healers bacon), or otherwise really change outcomes. These are just some nice racial equivelent abilities, in 3 years of 3ed Ive made 1 swim check. YMMV.

Immunity to Natural Toxins is a little better than what the druid gets at 9th level. Still doesnt make up for 5th level spells, an animal companion, or wild shape abilities.

Immune Disease is nice, but any character with a high heal score probably wont be stricken with disease anyway. Also a 5th level monk ability...throw in immunity to magical diseases and its an ability, otherwise its just something to write on your char sheet.

Longevity isnt as good as the monk or druid versions (druid 15, monk 17). Black Healer gets it at 9th, or roughly the same as the druid.

Which leaves Fast Healing 1/2, which is quite a powerful abiltiy. It makes being ble to administer a Heal Check for Herbal Remedies moot, allows the character to go into damn near every encounter fresh, and generally negates things like bleeding.

So, no good criticism comes without suggestion. You seem to really like fast healing, I think its an awesome ability, so why not make something like this:

Black Touch - You can confer Fast Healing 1 to any willing subject (or yourself) as a standard action. This ability lasts 1 min per Black Healer level and is usable 1/day at 2nd, 2/day at 6th, and 3/day at 10th level.

Herbal Poutice - You may make a poutlice which confers Fast Healing 1 to a subject for 1 minute. Each time you make a poultice it must be made with a certain race and gender in mind, but it lasts 1 day/Black Healer level. Preparing a poultice takes 10 min and requires 1 use of Black Touch.

[This effectively combines what you were going for with lay on hands, makes up for a lack of healing spells to some extent, and improves the rather weak (imo) poultice ability. At 10th level, given enough time you can heal someone for 100 hp with a touch (or as much as 300 with 3 touches). A 10th level black healer can take a day off and prepare 3 poultices which would bring anyone from the brink of death to consciousness, which is what I think you were going for with the poultice ability.]

Swamp Adaptation is good. I would also give +1 Natural Armor at 1st and every 3 levels afterwards. (Druid can cast barkskin which gives a +4 AC bonus at level 6).

I would replace the 5th and 10th level abilities with Damage Reduction 1/- and Damage Reduction 2/-. (Barb gets Damage Reducton 1/- at 11th level)

Immunity to Natural Toxins is fine but Immunity to Disease should include Magical Diseases.

Longevity should allow bonuses to accrue, but negate any aging penalties, otherwise as written.

For prereqs: Heal 8 ranks, Wil Lore 5 ranks, Base Will Save +3 (and completing the background requirements).

If this comes off as harsh then please excuse it (not intentional). I am your peer and I am trying to help you make the best class based on your idea. Also, there is a world of difference between NOONE taking a prc and EVERYONE jumping at it.

Technik

 

[Shadow64]

Good revision. The Brew Potion thing is good - some choices seem a bit odd (charm monster? how many monsters drink tea? ) but still well rounded.

I do like Technik4's idea about adding in Fear Immunity, but would definantly make that a 9th or 10th level ability.

Something to think about for the requirements: Maybe drop the CHA req for something like Iron Will. I don't see this class as a smooth talker ,which what CHA has always meant to me, but more of the solid, unshaking silent type.

I don't see this class as being overpowered at all. Yes - they do have boatloads of abilities, but none of them are earth shatteringly powerful. This is definantly a finnesse/role-playing PrC, but i've said that before. I was just thumbing through my books and found two more classes that could work well with this PrC - the Shaman and Shugenja classes from OA/Rokugan. The Shaman especially.

One last ramble before I hit the Submit button. Just a quick item i would think about giving a Black Healer if he really met Her expectations.

Totem of the Swamp
This item appears to be a small leather pouch that is worn around the Black Healers neck, inside is a small amount of dark soil from the swamp. Once per year if the black healer dies he is automatically raised by the magic in the totem. However, this uses up the soil in the pouch, so the Black Healer must return to the swamp and refill the pouch. When he returns he must pay a visit to Her so that She can see if his deeds warrent filling the pouch.

 

[Shadow64]

OK, here's an idea for prereqs:
Base Fort Save +5 or higher OR Base Will Save + 5 or higher, Wis 13+, Iron Will, Skill Focus: Heal

Now, here's my reasoning:
You said the class isn't really for spellcasters (which have the good Will Save Progression), which means it's mainly for the bruisers (who have the good fort saves). So, because of the dual nature of this class (heals/harms aspect) why not use either? The Fort Save because you are tough, which means you can stand up to the world and help people and the the Will Save because your mind is tough and you have the mental fortitude to take what the world can dish out. Now, that covers the bases so that either class-style can get in. Now, we use a Wis 13+ just because the character should have some natural smarts (and probably also because Wis is a stat that seems to be used for the healing types, ie - Cleric/Paladin/Shaman/Druid). Then we add on Iron Will to show that they are not afraid of...fear...hmmm...that sounded odd. Add in Skill Focus: Heal to show that they are also about helping people.

How does that sound?

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Black Touch - You can confer Fast Healing 1 to any willing subject (or yourself) as a standard action. This ability lasts 1 min per Black Healer level and is usable 1/day at 2nd, 2/day at 6th, and 3/day at 10th level.

Herbal Poutice - You may make a poutlice which confers Fast Healing 1 to a subject for 1 minute. Each time you make a poultice it must be made with a certain race and gender in mind, but it lasts 1 day/Black Healer level. Preparing a poultice takes 10 min and requires 1 use of Black Touch.

[This effectively combines what you were going for with lay on hands, makes up for a lack of healing spells to some extent, and improves the rather weak (imo) poultice ability. At 10th level, given enough time you can heal someone for 100 hp with a touch (or as much as 300 with 3 touches). A 10th level black healer can take a day off and prepare 3 poultices which would bring anyone from the brink of death to consciousness, which is what I think you were going for with the poultice ability.]

Correct me if I'm wrong, seasong, but it seems to me that what you're going for is more a "cinematically good healer" than "cleric who heals magically." In that case, Fast Healing may well be an appropriate way to go. Apply it via a Heal check or through a poultice to give it that air of something quasi-natural, and that also distinguishes it from the Cleric abilities.

Immunity to Natural Toxins is fine but Immunity to Disease should include Magical Diseases.

If you want to buff this ability a bit more, then ditch Immunity to Disease entirely, and, instead, make it an Herbal Healing ability. Give them a reasonable (20ish?) DC to heal any disease, and +5 DC to heal a magical disease, and then it's useable on anyone, not just them.

Also, in my opinion, fits the flavour a bit better. But maybe I'm overemphasizing the herbal/skill based nature of the Black Healer.

 

[Technik4]

The problem is that the healing power of most of those abilties is very weak. Also, imo, its silly to base a power based on total bonus rather than ranks, youre just asking for abuse. I'm not saying it wouldnt fit fine in seasong's campaign, but it requires dms who put reigns on what their characters can make/buy with respect to magical items.

Right now it seems like the black healer will definitely survive most encounters, but the party may not. Fast Healing is a strong ability, found almost exclusively on monsters, because it is a good ability for a monster to have. It means the PCs have to concentrate their efforts and pour on the damage, or they will keep healing. If they had called it "regeneration" instead of "fast healing" we probably wouldnt be having this discussion right now.

I can't think of too many characters which ever got regeneration in second ed, except possibly through use of a ring of regeneration. Which is absent from any current wotc book Ive read with magic items. Im pretty sure its not haphazard or random, its too powerful for PCs.

I like the healing magical diseases part.

Technik

 

[seasong]

If this comes off as harsh then please excuse it (not intentional). I am your peer and I am trying to help you make the best class based on your idea. Also, there is a world of difference between NOONE taking a prc and EVERYONE jumping at it.

Believe me, no offense taken. I really appreciate this post, especially, because it goes into specifics and helps me sort out particular issues.

Your example included heavy armor, but that is not given by your prc.

My example was "if a fighter...". You don't lose the ability to use heavy armor when you join this PrC. So if you go from fighter to black healer, you can use heavy armor and any martial or simple weapon.

A rogue who becomes a black healer, for example, will still have backstab. Hm... maybe I should offer a backstab option, to represent the physiology knowledge.

Lay on Hands for paladin is determined by Paladin Levels x Cha bonus. I would suggest you tie it to skill ranks (not bonus) as someone who acquires a Torc of Might Physiology +20 would be rather broken The other option is to tie it to Black Healer levels (which weakens it substantially).

That's broken anyway .

The black healer is arguably "difficult" to kill. He has no buffs (except potions, which dont last as long as spells (usually) and require xp), he gets no access to additional feats (which may increase his AC), no natural armor, and as written no Damage Reduction. He does have fast healing (at 5th).

Fighter 5/Black Healer 5
HP = Fighter 10
Fort = Fighter 10 + some
Fast Healing 1
Lay on Hands (some amount, probably 15/round)

By comparison...

Fighter 10
HP = Fighter 10
Fort = Fighter 10
Slight AC bonus due to feats (but IME, fighters concentrate more on damage output)

I think I can live with "tougher to kill than a fighter of equivalent level". And a black healer who starts with a different class will have other strengths to make up for the loss of the initial toughness.

However...

Healing

You did a pretty thorough analysis of this, thank you.

I'm still thinking about the details of this.

Brew Herbal Remedies is a good ability. Its more powerful than Brew Potion, in that you can make 3/day and the price is low. However, it is purely defensive, I dont know how you would get a monster to drink some tea so they may be held, and slay living and poison just seem outright underhanded and devious.

Hm. I think this be an example of my campaigns at work, here. I like running wars, politics, diplomacy... and what you describe above is exactly the sort of thing that goes on a lot.

Swamp Adaptation is decent. It is the core of the class, and adds some worthwhile benefits, but nothing that will turn the tide for the party, save the day when things look bleak (except maybe save the black healers bacon), or otherwise really change outcomes. These are just some nice racial equivelent abilities, in 3 years of 3ed Ive made 1 swim check. YMMV.

IME, dumping fully armored PCs in deep pools of water seems reasonably common, and I don't think I'm the exception here. If I am, I shouldn't be .

Immune Disease is nice, but any character with a high heal score probably wont be stricken with disease anyway. Also a 5th level monk ability...throw in immunity to magical diseases and its an ability, otherwise its just something to write on your char sheet.

Actually, I meant any disease. It may be a good idea to specify that "yes, that means you, mister magical disease".

Swamp Adaptation is good. I would also give +1 Natural Armor at 1st and every 3 levels afterwards. (Druid can cast barkskin which gives a +4 AC bonus at level 6).

Not a bad idea. Not bad at all. This may have to go in the options list.

I would replace the 5th and 10th level abilities with Damage Reduction 1/- and Damage Reduction 2/-. (Barb gets Damage Reducton 1/- at 11th level)

Doesn't really fit.

still thinking about specifics...