PrC recommendations for archer-style bards?

[Kalendraf]

He's curerntly 8th level, yes? Are you thinking of splitting lcurrent levels between bard and a PrC, or adding more PrC levels onto the existing 8? How high do you want to go? And are you adverse to psionic classes? Maybe take a few levels of Psi Warrior with some of the funky Psionic feats? You'd have to shuffle the stats for a better wisdom, though.

This NPC already has 8 levels of bard. It's where to go from here if/when the character levels up next that I'm considering. As for Psionics, there isn't any in this campaign world, so that's a no. I'm not anti-psionics, just that this world doesn't feature it.

To help explain the situation better, here's more background on this particular bard and how she fits into the current party. This should help explain where I'm coming from on this.

The character was originally just a no-name, unstatted prisoner that was rescued by the party. In the process of leading her and other captives to safety, they were ambushed by a group of grimlocks and she was killed. Feeling bad about losing one of the prisoners in this way, the party managed to help get her raised. She was faced with a choice of going back to her old life working in a shop for a man she had grown to despise vs. finding something else to do. She sweet-talked her way into repaying her debt to the party, offering to tend their animals and campsite while they travelled, but her real goal was to become an adventurer herself. Along the way, she began studying from the party's bard.

Fast-forward several months of playtime and levels worth of adventuring, and this NPC bard has now become one of the team. She's demonstrated her usefulness multiple times, but she still lags behind them in levels (most of party is 10th to 11th). She continues to try to find ways to improve, but fears she'll never be able to out-bard the party's main bard. Also, there is some drawback in the 2 bard overlap - having both sing to inspire courage does not help. She's taken some alternate spells that the other bard doesn't have to help avoid as much overlap in spellcasting, but being a lower level caster means her magic is usually less effective.

Continuing down the bard path looks to be one that will forever confine her to living in the shadow of the other bard in the party. Thus, in an attempt to differentiate and/or prove herself more useful to the party, she is searching for alternatives. Developing her bow skills further seems to her like one way to do that, but there may well be other better options for her that have not been considered.

 

[Kalendraf]

Mayhaps Complete Adventurer will have something; its mostly for rogues/bards/skill monkeys.

Yeah, I'm figuring there probably will be some cool bard PrC's, feats and other developments in that which will be just what this bard is looking for. Unfortunately, it's not out yet. I definitely will be buying it though. I've got Complete Warrior & Complete Divine, and plan to get Complete Arcane soon, hopefully as a gift (Dear Santa, I've been very good this year!)

I was expecting with as many bard-archers as I've seen before (in play or in posts), there were probably multiple cool prestige classes ideal for them. But so far it doesn't look like that is the case.

 

[philreed]

I hope the one I sent you gave you some ideas.

 

[Kalendraf]

I hope the one I sent you gave you some ideas.

Yes. It glanced at it and it looks pretty cool. This is definitely along the lines of what I had in mind. I may send some feedback via e-mail. Thanks!

 

[Thanee]

If someone can cite an exact rule that says +1 stat items are not legal, then I'll consider changing my position. Otherwise, I simply view the magic items listed in the DMG as examples and not much more.

Not sure if there is such a rule, but the even numbered bonuses will make sure, that the actual effect is always the same (+1 modifier per +2 stat). With the odd numbered bonuses, one character would have an advantage while for the other the item would do nothing at all (with +1 stat) pretty much.

I think that is why they only really use even numbered bonuses (only exception seems to be inherent).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Krug]

I hope the one I sent you gave you some ideas.

C'mon Phil, share it with the world.

 

[philreed]

C'mon Phil, share it with the world.

I can't do that, it's for subscribers to the DM's Idea Pipeline. Wouldn't be fair to just give away the stuff the subscribers pay for.

 

[tarchon]

What about one of the PrCs from Song and Silence?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Well, I would say one likely route (in OGL 3.5) is to grab one level of Fighter (or other class with MWP - Barbarian and Ranger both have merits) and then do Eldritch Knight once you have the Martial Weapons prof. That way, you only lose one spell casting level, get a couple feats, and get on the fighter BAB track. I'd agree with others that this may not make up for losing bard song advancement, but it's probably OK for carving out an archer/caster niche.
Yeah, as a former high level bard, I agree that their PrC options tend to suck. It's a little better in 3.5 though.

 

[Kalendraf]

I guess in the case of Eldritch Knight vs. continuing as a bard, it seems more logical (to me at least) to stick to bard. Comparing the Eldritch Knight (EK) pros & con's to the bard:

EK pros: +1 BAB/level, bonus fighter feat at 1st level of PrC
Even: d6 HD, +1 level arcane spellcasting per level (but missed at 1st level of PrC)
EK cons: No song progression, Skill points 2+int/level

Essentially, a bard taking levels in EK ends up trading:
A) 1 level of spellcasting for a bonus feat
B) 4 skill points per level and song progression for +1 BAB per level
C) good reflex & will saves for good fort saves instead.

That's a pretty expensive trade for a single fighter-bonus feat, +1 BAB/lvl and good fort saves. It's one not many bards are likely to make.

 

[tarchon]

That's a pretty expensive trade for a single fighter-bonus feat, +1 BAB/lvl and good fort saves. It's one not many bards are likely to make.

Fighter BAB is going to be expensive any way you get to it, I think. The kinds of PrCs that I was most interested in were things like Arcane Trickster, (Song and Silence's) Spymaster (which required Innuendo in 3.0, making it next to impossible for a straight bard, but in 3.5 it might be different), and Shadowdancer. A level or two of Arcane Archer would have been tempting, if I'd been an elf. It seemed to me that arcane spellcaster and rogue PrCs were the most attractive, but most of the rogue ones would have required a couple levels of being a rogue to get the rogue-only skill prereqs. Usually spellcaster PrCs have prereqs that a bard can cover fairly easily.

BTW, letting humans get AA might unbalance it slightly, since it's geared for races that get fewer feats and most of its prereqs are feats. Not a big thing, but it's just a little less expensive for a human.