PrC-restrictions or ...

[isoChron]

Hi,
I don't know if I'm right with this thread in the house rules forum.

OK, we all know that you loose the abilities of the prestigeclass you have if you no longer have the prerequisites.
BUT ... take the assassin : Character takes assassin (evil) and becomes neutral over time because of influences by the group. So Alignment Neutral instead of evil. So no assassin anymore. He looses Sneak Attack, Spells Poison Use and Death Attack maybe some other things.
The wording in the description of most abilities says : Learned to (use poison, strike more lethal .....). LEARNED not given by a divine creature or similar.
So why does he loose Sneak Attack ? Or Poison Use. I think it's possible to keep some or most of these abilities but the rules say NO.
Please help me: What abilities are to keep because of learning ? What with spells ?
I know it's a house rule and not covered by the rules.
Thank you.
Bye

 

[Oni]

Very simply I would allow the assassin to keep what abilities he gained up until that point but then would no longer be able to advance in that PrC.


The rule you mention is one I am not particularly fond of since it generates lots of nonsensical oddities. Personally I think PrC's should have a section like the monk or the paladin that explains what might make them unable to continue to advance and what happens should they no longer be elegible for the class.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

well, this is a common argument, but I'll just throw in my 2 cents. It is legitamate to lose supernatural, spell like abilities etal, but not extrordinary ones. Poison use, poison resistance, sneak attack, etc, it will all still be there. The spells are iffy, esp any with an evil descriptor.

That said, there are exceptions I would make to the EX abilities. For instance, a barbarian who goes lawful just doesn't have it in him to rage anymore. Similarly, one might say that the examination period for the death attack represents a cold lack of feeling for life that a non evil character just can't recreate. (you could have a recent assassin convert make concentration checks as she tried to prepare for a death attack and on failures describe the distracting awareness of the 'target' as a PERSON that prevents that round from counting... )

Personally I would rather just remove the allignment restriction altogether, or make it clear that such a transformation would only be availible to a PC if he started out evil, risked the character getting killed by the party and roleplayed the transformation. (and had lots of Xena-esq encounters with the sins of his past afterwards. )

kahuna Burger

 

[Oni]

Just like to note that the assassin learns, preps, and casts like a wizard, they have a spellbook and all that. It's learned knowledge, I doubt it would be something they would lose the ability to do.


Death attack i wouldn't consider anymore cruel or inhuman than sneak attack, just better planned and based on a more extensive knowledge of anatomy.

 

[isoChron]

Yes, I think the same way as Oni does (in this special case ). My problem is to convince 2 of 6 members of our group that handling this (alignment change) with the rules would be plain stupid.
Death Attack offers the ability to knock someone out without killing. This could be an ability that saves lifes. There are few nonmagical ways to catch someone without hurting him.
The standard tactic is : ROUGH HIM UP TILL HE'S QUITE.

Brrrr. Even in literature there are many examples how an assassin (not always evil!) changed the sides. Many of them used their old profession in the cause of good with great success. Some didn't use their abilities any more but only because they don't want.

Who do I convince them ?? They are addicted to the rules.

 

[Li Shenron]

It is legitamate to lose supernatural, spell like abilities etal, but not extrordinary ones. Poison use, poison resistance, sneak attack, etc, it will all still be there.

I agree.

The spells are iffy, esp any with an evil descriptor.
[/QUOTE]

What does "iffy" mean? Well, I think the Assassin should keep all his spells. I think the only ones who would lose spells/day and known spells are the Divine spellcasters, since any of them who has an alignment restriction is actually powered by some divine being or entity to pursue a moral goal. Clerics, Paladins, Druids lose spells if they shift out of the required alignment, which is in line with the fact that they cast because their gods let them.

The Assassin casts exactly in the same way of the Wizard: he learns spells by himself, from a source, record them in his spellbook, and exercise for more spells/day. RP-wise there is really no reason for him to lose this acquired knowledge; if he becomes Good, it is very likely he wouldn't like much to cast evil spells, but if he does there's no problem, just like a Wizard.

Note that of the core classes, the Bard is the only arcane spellcaster with an alignment restriction, and he does NOT lose spells if he becomes Lawful.

Let me know what you think!

 

[Kahuna Burger]

What does "iffy" mean? Well, I think the Assassin should keep all his spells. I think the only ones who would lose spells/day and known spells are the Divine spellcasters, since any of them who has an alignment restriction is actually powered by some divine being or entity to pursue a moral goal. Clerics, Paladins, Druids lose spells if they shift out of the required alignment, which is in line with the fact that they cast because their gods let them.

the assassin spells are very odd to begin with. Yes, he learns prepares and casts as a wizard, but with a very small and focused spell list. Obviously he isn't just gaining some neutral arcane ability or he could learn wizard spells. I think assassin spells would make more sense thematicly as spell like abilities or divine casting. I'd want to examine the whole situation much more carefully before definitively saying whether the spells should stay or go.

This is not a rules interpretation, its a concern about making the transition make sense.

Kahuna Burger

 

[Dark Dragon]

the assassin spells are very odd to begin with. Yes, he learns prepares and casts as a wizard, but with a very small and focused spell list. Obviously he isn't just gaining some neutral arcane ability or he could learn wizard spells. I think assassin spells would make more sense thematicly as spell like abilities or divine casting. I'd want to examine the whole situation much more carefully before definitively saying whether the spells should stay or go.

This is not a rules interpretation, its a concern about making the transition make sense.

Kahuna Burger

Yep. Unfortunately, not all PrCs are treated the same way if one or more requirements aren't met anymore. Arcane PrCs seem to be somewhat difficult to handle on that matter.

Two examples (both from FRCS):

1) Red Wizard. Requires non-good alignment, gains some special abilities (tatoos and so on...) and spell casting level +1 for each Red Wizard level. What would happen if the wizard becomes good after gaining some Red Wizard levels? Does he fall back in his spell casting power to a pre-PrC level? What about his (arcane) special abilities? Nothing is written here about an alignment change and its results.

2) Harper Scout. Requires good alignment, IIRC. He gains arcane spells (from a small spell list) and some divine powers. Should the alignment change to evil, he loses all divine powers, but retains the arcane ones (see FRCS). He can't progress as a Harper Scout unless the requirements are met again. Clear ruling, why not for all PrCs?. *sigh*

As the assassin learns spells like a wizard and none of these spells has an [evil] descriptor AFAIK, they shouldn't be related to some special alignment. I would agree that a non-evil assassin who wants to stay non-evil can't use his death attack to kill someone and shouldn't use poison. Losing his save bonus to poisons seems to be ok, too (become more resistant to poison is more supernatural or comes from a divine source, IMHO).

 

[Li Shenron]

Good considerations from both of you, Kahuna Burger and Dark Dragon.

Let's also remember that several PrCls are to be taken when the PC joins an organization, and receives some unique training. Very often the organization has an alignment issue (of course it has some purpose to exist, and that is often related to a moral ideal, although not necessarily).

Losing the alignment required would definitely put the PC off in advancing in the class, since he would probably be removed from the organization itself: an Assassin who ceases to be evil is not willing to kill professionally for money (otherwise he's still evil), and therefore is definitely cast away from the assassins' guild.

Exiting the organization means to lose access to its benefits, foremost further training, but to lose what was previously learned is IMHO nonsense. Divine spellcasters ARE the exception, since their whole spellcasting is not much a matter of learning, but instead a matter of being granted spells by divine beings: a divine spellcaster never really "learns" spells, and in fact he can cast all spells on his list.

So, this is how it's played in our games, based of course on my ideas, which by the way came to me just by reading the WotC books .

 

[Hashmalum]

the assassin spells are very odd to begin with. Yes, he learns prepares and casts as a wizard, but with a very small and focused spell list. Obviously he isn't just gaining some neutral arcane ability or he could learn wizard spells. I think assassin spells would make more sense thematicly as spell like abilities or divine casting. I'd want to examine the whole situation much more carefully before definitively saying whether the spells should stay or go.

The reason the assassin has a very small list is the fact that he, and the organization that trains him, is very tightly focused. If it doesn't impact very directly on stealthy killing, he isn't interested and doesn't study it. An assassin who IS interested and DOES study magic beyond the bounds of the assassin spell list isn't an assassin, he is a wizard. Time and effort spent learning how to, say, summon creatures from other planes of existence or create fire out of nowhere is time and effort not expendable on learning human anatomy or practicing with a poisoned blade.

The assassin's abilities, including spellcasting, come from special training by an organization. The class requirements merely reflect what is necessary to get in and stay in this organization. If you don't meet the requirements, you get kicked out (probably with a poisoned knife in your back). Even if you get kicked out, you don't forget your training. Logically the only loss you should suffer if you don't meet the requirements is no longer being able to advance in the assassin class (and having NPC assassins after you). If you meet the requirements again at some point, you may be able to join another organization that offers similar training and pick up where you left off.