PrCs - which ones are (a bit) over the edge?

[Dark Dragon]

PrCs are a quite nice way to add some special stuff to a PC.

Some are nice, balanced, and offer good opportunities for role playing.

Others are a DM's headache, and offer different ways for roll-playing...

Example 1: The Eldritch Knight in combination with the feat Arcane Strike. The damage output is way off, IMO.

Example 2: Frenzied Berserker. Go and kill. Melee combat can't kill you, so...keep on killing foes. The party battled a FB once and brought him down to -50 (or was it -100?) hp, before the DM declared the FB dead...and ignoring the rules...

Example 3: Radiant Cheese of Pelor. A cleric. Just better as a cleric.


My question: What PrC do you consider broken, too good to ignore, or being a candidate for corrections? A friend and I try to correct some overpowered PrC for a homebrewed version of D&D. We're using the 3.5 rules plus the standard splat books (Complete X,Y,Z...) as well as the FRCS and PGtF.

Thanks for your comments!

 

[Crothian]

None

 

[Trouvere]

The new Trapsmith class in Dungeonscape seems okay, but its strange spell list (Haste and Dispel Magic as 1st level spells, for example) will cause problems with PrCs that can cherry-pick from other class lists (Wyrm Wizard and Recaster, others?).

 

[PallidPatience]

Example 1: The Eldritch Knight in combination with the feat Arcane Strike. The damage output is way off, IMO.

Really? How so? What level spell is he sacrificing? How much damage could he do with a spell of that level? Would he have to be in melee range? Or did you mean in conjunction with Wraithstrike (because then the real problem would be Wraithstrike)?

 

[jasin]

Example 1: The Eldritch Knight in combination with the feat Arcane Strike. The damage output is way off, IMO.

Way off what? An equal level fighter? An equal level cleric? An equal level barbarian?

Unless you're using additional cheese like wraithstrike, I don't think eldrich knight + Arcane Strike is that impressive. It's OK, but certainly nowhere near the top of my broken PrC list.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

There aren't any PrCs that I don't allow because they're unbalanced. In my opinion, unbalanced is so campaign and DM specific that I try not to think along those terms. Jst simply knowing your DMs tendencies and exploiting them can make a class unbalanced - if that's what you are going for.

Now, there are a few PrCs that I don't like to see in game. Frenzied Berserker, simply because it is so prone to egocentrism and group dynamic destruction. Geomancer, because the ending PC is essentially too much of a freak to be accepted anywhere in civilization.

I don't think any particular WotC class needs to be labeled as broken. I think the way that players intentionally combine aspects of character construction is what leads to brokenness. There are far more "class-abusive" players out there than broken classes.

But then again, in a game run by me the party will only spend about 5% of their time in combat. That tends to really minimize the number of broken builds out there. If someone wants to build a broken damage-output type character, they'll shine for 5% of the game and likely be a support role character for the remaining 95%.

Roleplaying does wonders for unbreaking broken players ... er ... retraining players who tend to build broken characters.

One exception: The 3rd party druid combination .. something involving Green or Verdant, I think ... is really powerful. Even that class, however, if put into a game that minimizes combat, is not necessarily broken.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

There are just so many prestige classes out there that I've really stopped paying attention. I try and judge on a case-by-case basis, but ideally I don't make any decisions without any actual gameplay. I can't look at a feat or ability and interpret the myriad of combinations that go along with it that might or might not constitute "broken."

Example 1: The Eldritch Knight in combination with the feat Arcane Strike. The damage output is way off, IMO.

As others have asked, do you have an example? Extra damage is nice, but it rarely beats the utility and versatility most spells offer. If you think Arcane Strike is bad, have you seen what happens when the same EK casts True Strike and power attacks for his full BAB?

 

[Wraith-Hunter]

If you think the EK is bad you, you should totally ban core clerics and druids.

There is not a gish build out there that is as good as a cleric/druid, and it gets more insane the more suppliments you add to the full divine casters.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Really? How so? What level spell is he sacrificing? How much damage could he do with a spell of that level? Would he have to be in melee range? Or did you mean in conjunction with Wraithstrike (because then the real problem would be Wraithstrike)?

If he sacrifices a level 7 spell, has 4 attacks per round with a two-handed weapon +3 (seems to appropriate for this level, assuming he uses a great sword), Str 16 (unbuffed), power attack (let's say 5 points) and has a BAB of +16. Let's see...
Attack:
+16 (BAB)
+3 (Str)
+3 (sword +3)
+7 (arcane strike)
-5 (power attack)
Sum: +24/+19/+14/+9 without any buffs...

Damage:
+7d4 (average:+17)
+2d6+6 (sword & Str: +13)
+10 (power attack & two-handed weapon)
Sum: 40 damage PER attack!

Granted, not all attacks will hit. If they do, we get 160 damage in that round. Unbuffed. On the fly, as a free action. Now buff the guy. Or give him a Spiked Chain. Or another two-handed weapon with reach.

Now the EK has almost full spell progression and can buff himself: Haste, Heroism, Bull's Strength, WRAITHSTRIKE, TRUE STRIKE, Enlarge Person, TENSER's Transformation...just to mention a few buffs and not all are needed...

I'v seen an EK in action. He outclassed both our tempest/fighter/rogue and the raging fighter/barbarian (wielding a spiked chain).

 

[Dark Dragon]

There aren't any PrCs that I don't allow because they're unbalanced. In my opinion, unbalanced is so campaign and DM specific that I try not to think along those terms. Jst simply knowing your DMs tendencies and exploiting them can make a class unbalanced - if that's what you are going for.

Agreed. But I think and hope, that IMC no player develops a PC just to frustrate the DM.

Now, there are a few PrCs that I don't like to see in game. Frenzied Berserker, simply because it is so prone to egocentrism and group dynamic destruction. Geomancer, because the ending PC is essentially too much of a freak to be accepted anywhere in civilization.

I don't think any particular WotC class needs to be labeled as broken. I think the way that players intentionally combine aspects of character construction is what leads to brokenness. There are far more "class-abusive" players out there than broken classes.

But then again, in a game run by me the party will only spend about 5% of their time in combat. That tends to really minimize the number of broken builds out there. If someone wants to build a broken damage-output type character, they'll shine for 5% of the game and likely be a support role character for the remaining 95%.

Again, generally I agree. But even a battle offers lots of opportunities for role playing, unless you have some PC killing the BBEG in round 2 in melee combat. I don't like putting up creatures, especially major villains, that negate a PC's powers just for balance's sake. The Eldritch Knight fulfills two roles: He's good in combat and as a caster, also good in whatever non-combat support is needed. That's why I don't like this PrC.

Roleplaying does wonders for unbreaking broken players ... er ... retraining players who tend to build broken characters.

One exception: The 3rd party druid combination .. something involving Green or Verdant, I think ... is really powerful. Even that class, however, if put into a game that minimizes combat, is not necessarily broken.

Verdant Lord. Yep, that was a very strong PrC. The MoW is not longer in use IMC...