PrCs - which ones are (a bit) over the edge?

[Nonlethal Force]

Agreed. But I think and hope, that IMC no player develops a PC just to frustrate the DM.

Why not? Granted, I prefer to play in games where it is not DM vs. Players ... but once and a while it is kinda fun to go toe to toe and see if a set of players can survive a dugneon that is CR appropriate for their abilities.

Again, generally I agree. But even a battle offers lots of opportunities for role playing, unless you have some PC killing the BBEG in round 2 in melee combat. I don't like putting up creatures, especially major villains, that negate a PC's powers just for balance's sake. The Eldritch Knight fulfills two roles: He's good in combat and as a caster, also good in whatever non-combat support is needed. That's why I don't like this PrC.

Well, if we are specifically going to talk about the EK PrC and not PrCs in general ...

The EK is only as good as his magic allows, especially out of combat. Most spellcasters have a general spell list that they like to use. The bad guys will know this if they are intelligent. Design encounters that the spellcaster's typical spell list won't allow them to shine.

In combat, EKs are vulnerable primarily in the HPs. To be truly a terror, EKs often need to melee. Melee and low HP do not often mesh well. If you have an EK that likes to true strike, wraithstrike, or any other kind of strike, find combat opponents with low ACs but high hit point totals. [Giants, for example] These opponents are designed expecting to be hit. They can take it. Plus, they can also dish it out better than the EK can take it back. EKs wane quickly in melee because of their lower HP total. To challenge EKs, you need things with enough HP to weather the EKs storm.

In any respect, EKs are certainly challengeable. It's not that difficult to make their player sweat!

Verdant Lord. Yep, that was a very strong PrC. The MoW is not longer in use IMC...

Ah, Verdant Lord. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Agent Oracle]

All the "broken"prestiege classes i've ever seen were from, you guessed it: third party cheese.

Let's see... there was the arcane monk: 3.0's monk attack advancement, hit dice, and skills, with full arcane spell casting limited to "touch spells only", oh, and a class feature that effectively let them cast and deliver two spells, starting at first level.

Then there was the Inquisitor (again, 3.0, third party), cleric BAB and 1/2 spells, with the "torture" specialability. (which imposed permanent penalties on the opponent's skills, effectively, they could remove skill points with an attack)

And the City watch officer (3.0, third party) could track anyone, anywhere in the city.

 

[delericho]

If he sacrifices a level 7 spell, has 4 attacks per round with a two-handed weapon +3 (seems to appropriate for this level, assuming he uses a great sword), Str 16 (unbuffed), power attack (let's say 5 points) and has a BAB of +16. Let's see...

Okay, if I've got the sums right, that makes the character at least a Ftr 4/Wiz 5/EK 10 for the +16 BAB and the 7th level spells (though there are other ways to get that combo, I think that's the lowest level it's possible).

So, compare with a Ftr 19, assuming a two handed weapon +3 (likely to be higher, as no need to boost both melee ability and spell-casting stats) and a Str 16 (also likely to be higher, for the same reason).

So, attack:

+19 (BAB)
+3 (Str)
+3 (sword +3)
+2 (Imp Wpn Focus)
-5 (Power attack)
Sum: +22/+17/+12/+7

Damage:

2d6+3 (sword)
+4 (Str)
+10 (Power Attack)
+4 (Imp Wpn spec)
Sum: 28 damage per attack.

A cursory examination indicates that the EK is ahead. Except:

This hasn't taken into account any of the feats the Fighter has except for Weapon Focus and Specialisation.

The Fighter hasn't had to sacrifice one of very few 7th level spells he has available for the day - the Fighter can hit like this over and over and over again.

The Fighter gets to wear armour.

The Fighter has vastly more hit points: 19d10 (109) instead of 4d10+5d4+10d6 (74).

The Fighter gets to assign all his wealth to boosting his Strength and his weapon, where the Eldritch Knight has to also boost his Intelligence, and probably needs to spend a lot more to get an AC that's even comparable. Likewise for the stat boosts gained every 4 levels.

Also, the Fighter isn't the most powerful melee combatant in the game - a 19th level Barbarian with greataxe, mithral full plate and animated shield stomps all over him.

 

[delericho]

Oh, as for my opinion of a PrC that's too powerful - almost any PrC with "+1 caster level" at every level. These classes are almost guaranteed to be too powerful, unless they either omit the progression at level 1, or require that the character give up a level in the course of qualifying for the class. (So, Mystic Theurge is actually fine, since the character must take both Wizard and Cleric levels to qualify, where Alienist is probably too powerful.)

Otherwise, I haven't seen any classes that I would ban outright as a power issue. There are some I would ban because of flavour issues, and a lot of classes I just don't like for various reasons. (And, in fact, even those "+1 caster level" PrCs don't get banned - the differential is generally not enough to worry about, especially if everyone has the same access to PrCs.)

Where there is more likely to be a problem, IMO, is the wierd combinations, where you combine a level here, a level there, a couple of key feats, just the right magic item/spell/effect, and end up with a monster. But those are harder to find without help, and can easily enough be banner or nerfed as necessary. (Also, most of the classic examples of such rely on an over-generous reading of the RAW, where the DM can easily enough insist on a conservative reading, or violate the spirit of the rules in a very obvious manner.)

 

[Arashi Ravenblade]

I dont think any are over powered. There are some I dont allow for flavor reasons. For example I run the realms and the Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom dont exist in FR, at least not to my knowledge, so I dont allow them. Same reaons I wouldnt allow a Harper scout in Eberron.

 

[Janaxstrus]

My DM won't allow Abjurant Champion.

He and one of the other players are the only ones who I have seen complain about it however.

 

[Psion]

Example 1: The Eldritch Knight in combination with the feat Arcane Strike. The damage output is way off, IMO.

Eldritch knight? Not sure I see it, when there are much better gish-style classes out there like Abjurant Champion and Illithid Slayer.

I won't allow radiant munchkin. Take the best class in the game and make it better? No thanks.

Master Specialist seems a bit strong too, and least compared to a basic specialist. But if you consider it next to other classes as a balancer, I can see it.

 

[Felon]

In combat, EKs are vulnerable primarily in the HPs. To be truly a terror, EKs often need to melee. Melee and low HP do not often mesh well.

Right, an eldritch knight is basically similar to a rogue in that respect. A paper tiger.

 

[Felon]

My DM won't allow Abjurant Champion.

He and one of the other players are the only ones who I have seen complain about it however.

Here's a thread about warrior-mage PrC's you should check out.

 

[Felon]

There is not a gish build out there that is as good as a cleric/druid, and it gets more insane the more suppliments you add to the full divine casters.

If self-buffing is what makes for an effective warrior-mage, then certainly there's more than a shred of truth here.