PrCs - which ones are (a bit) over the edge?

[Mort]

If he sacrifices a level 7 spell, has 4 attacks per round with a two-handed weapon +3 (seems to appropriate for this level, assuming he uses a great sword), Str 16 (unbuffed), power attack (let's say 5 points) and has a BAB of +16. Let's see...
Attack:
+16 (BAB)
+3 (Str)
+3 (sword +3)
+7 (arcane strike)
-5 (power attack)
Sum: +24/+19/+14/+9 without any buffs...

Damage:
+7d4 (average:+17)
+2d6+6 (sword & Str: +13)
+10 (power attack & two-handed weapon)
Sum: 40 damage PER attack!

Granted, not all attacks will hit. If they do, we get 160 damage in that round. Unbuffed. On the fly, as a free action. Now buff the guy. Or give him a Spiked Chain. Or another two-handed weapon with reach.

Now the EK has almost full spell progression and can buff himself: Haste, Heroism, Bull's Strength, WRAITHSTRIKE, TRUE STRIKE, Enlarge Person, TENSER's Transformation...just to mention a few buffs and not all are needed...

I'v seen an EK in action. He outclassed both our tempest/fighter/rogue and the raging fighter/barbarian (wielding a spiked chain).

i note a +16 BAB that means a 19-20th level character. Considering he's sacrificing a 7th level spell to do it, that's just not over the top - a well built fighter or barbarian (or warblade or crusader) could equal or excell that easily and could do it many more times per day. Heck the wizard using a 6th level disintigrate can average 133 HP damage on a failed save - and doesn't have to be in melee to do it.

I agree with the prev. posters - take out wraithsrike and the EK builds are anything but over the top.

on topic:
abjurant champion is a bit to good. Add to the fact that the class doesn't actually work the way intended.

Frenzied berserker is over the top, and a pain to boot - i'd never allow this in a campaign.

 

[Dark Dragon]

i note a +16 BAB that means a 19-20th level character. Considering he's sacrificing a 7th level spell to do it, that's just not over the top - a well built fighter or barbarian (or warblade or crusader) could equal or excell that easily and could do it many more times per day. Heck the wizard using a 6th level disintigrate can average 133 HP damage on a failed save - and doesn't have to be in melee to do it.

Except for that the wizard has to beat SR (at high levels an issue) AND the foe has to fail the save...That may apply for other spells like Delayed Blast Fireball, Finger of Death, Prismatic Spray...
The EK could also try to use disintegrate, but he can also wade into melee combat, an option a wizard rarely chooses. That is especially nice when the foe has a high SR or is immune to magic, like a golem. Arcane Strike is then a very nice add-on...
I'd be happier about the EK if the spell progression is only 1/2 in exchange for some other gimmicks.

I agree with the prev. posters - take out wraithsrike and the EK builds are anything but over the top.

Hehe, the EK IMC hasn't used Wraithstrike so far. Nevertheless, some players and the DM are a bit worried about the EK's abilities.

on topic:
abjurant champion is a bit to good. Add to the fact that the class doesn't actually work the way intended.

Frenzied berserker is over the top, and a pain to boot - i'd never allow this in a campaign.

Agreed.

Mage of the Arcane Order was already mentioned earlier. The only problem I recognised was that the MAO may have access to spells from various sources, e.g. Spell Compendium, Complete Arcane, Magic of Faerûn,...This may cause some trouble since some spells from these sources are too powerful, IMHO, and that the MAO often has the right spell ready to solve a problem. IMC, that problem was solved in a way that there is a % chance that a certain spell (other than spells from the PHB) is available from the spell pool. Works fine so far.

 

[Nyeshet]

If he sacrifices a level 7 spell, has 4 attacks per round with a two-handed weapon +3 (seems to appropriate for this level, assuming he uses a great sword), Str 16 (unbuffed), power attack (let's say 5 points) and has a BAB of +16. Let's see...
Attack: +24/+19/+14/+9 without any buffs...

Damage: 40 damage PER attack!

Um, at level 19-20 I would not consider +24 on first attack or only 40 damage (per attack) to be all that much - even without buffs. +24, pre buffs, is more or less expected, if not a bit low for that level for a fighter or barbarian (or ranger, actually). Only 40 damage (pre-buffs)? A 19-20th level Rogue could do better, albeit with Sneak attack. Without sneak attack, I think it would just be enough to edge out the rogue - which is really almost pitiful in comparison to what a pre-epic fighter or barbarian can accomplish.

EK suffers from MAD. That is why, I presume, it had such a low Str for its level. A fighter or barbarian would have had an 18-22 in Str, pre-buffs. With +19 or +20 to attack from bab, they more than beat +24 right there, not even taking into account their likely +4 or +5 weapon, etc. Don't forget, Rage boosts that another few points for the barbarian, and the Fighter has Wpn Focus, Grtr Wpn Focus, Wpn Spc, Grtr Wpn Spc, and so forth. Either way, the pure Fighter or Barbarian of equivalent level does significantly better - pre-buffs. Also, if the EK is buffing himself rather than his allies, then I presume he is the tank of the group - the main combative. In this case, he needs to buff himself just to survive in the roll he has taken on for the group.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Agreed, Abjurant champion is just plain too good. BAB +5, caster +5 D10 hit points, decent saves, and very very nice abilities, including endless quickened abjurations of 3rd level and lower. (Well, till you run out of slots, which could be a long while.) A Warrior casting dispels, Protetion arrows, Resist energy and shield, (of course) is pretty good. Go into Spell Compendium and it gets even better.

Radient servent I still see as balanced, as I believe a cleric should have something else but spell and and turn undead, and all the radient servent's abilities can be easily obtained with feats. Or are not worth getting anyway

Maximizing and empowering heal spells is just not hard at all, destroying instead of turning is a feat you can get at first level, and who cares about radience?

What you said about the Radiant Servant may be true about getting everything they get with feats but you get it all without having to. You essentially out Cleric the Cleric. It is all pluses and no minuses. It is too good a deal too. If I ran a cleric which is rare, I would want this.

 

[wildstarsreach]

And if you drop wraithstrike from the equation, which is the real culprit here.

I really wish I could say it would be fixed by bumping its level to 3rd or 4th, but I don't even know if that's the case.

Fix wraithstrike to affecting only the next attack, Period. Sorry I'm off track.

 

[Wraith-Hunter]

If a EK based gish is dominating the party then the rest ofthe party should spend some time on the Optimization boards at WotC. Really. If your problem was an uber druid you mighthave something. But a gish is hardly ever game dominating.

What I think is happening is the gish player is somewhat of an optimizer and the rest of the group is not.

This has nothing to do with classes PrC's etc.

This is a question of play style. The mechanics of the game favor optimizers. You can get a character that is quite a bit more powerfull than their non-optimized counter parts.

Maybe the other players should try to optimize alittle more? Or maybe the play style just doesn't mesh well. I know in my group that a person who doesn't like optimizing and who wants 90% role play would justnot get along. Most of our characters are fairly optimized and we have about a 50-50 roll-role play.

EK's are rather weak. A straight fighter wizard or other can out perform them. Their claim to fame is more versitility, or a couple really good hits.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Well, let's compare a straight fighter with an EK. I used PHB and DMG rules only, except for Arcane Strike.

1) EK
Ftr 1 / Wiz 5 / EK 10, human
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 10
Feats: 11: Scribe Scroll (Wiz 1), Still Spell (Wiz 5), Arcane Strike, Weapon Focus (Great Sword) (Ftr 1), Power Attack, Improved Critical (Great Sword), Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack
Skills: 1st level (Ftr): 8 +4 (human) +3 (Int 16 at that level) =15
5 levels Wiz: 10 +10 +15 =35
10 levels EK: 20 + 20 +30 =70, assuming Int 18 at level 16
Sum: 120 points
Hit Points: 1d10+2 (12, 1st level) + 5d4+10 (avg. 22) + 10d6+20 (avg. 55), Sum: 89
Base Saves: Fort +2 (Ftr) +7 (EK) + 1 (Wiz) +2 (Con) = +12
Ref +0 (Ftr) +3 (EK) +1 (Wiz) + 2 (Dex) = +6
Will +0 (Ftr) +3 (EK) + 4 (Wiz) +1 (Wis) = +8
BAB:+13
Spells: CL 14, max. spell level is 7
Spells per level: 0: 4
1: 4+2
2: 4+2
3: 4+2
4: 4+1
5: 3+1
6: 3+1
7: 2+1
Weapon: Great Sword +2
Relevant magic items: Belt of Str +2 (raising Str to 18), Headband of Int +6 (raising Int to 24)
Full Attack (without buff spells and AS): +20/+15/+10 (Great Sword +2, 2d6+8, 17-20, x2, avg. 15 damage)
Full Attack, including AS at spell level 7: +27/+22/+17 (Great Sword +2, 2d6+8+7d4, 17-20, x2, avg. 32 damage)
Full Attack, including AS at spell level 7 and PA 5: +22/+17/+12 (Great Sword +2, 2d6+8+7d4+10, 17-20, x2, avg. 42 damage)

2) Ftr
Ftr 16, human
Str 18, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 10
Feats: 17: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Iron Will, Endurance, Diehard, Quick Draw, Improved Critical (Great Sword)
Skills: 1st level (Ftr): 8 +4 (human) +1 (Int) =13
15 levels Ftr: 30 + 15 + 15 = 60
Sum: 73 points
Hit Points: 1d10+3 (13, 1st level) + 15d10+45 (avg. 127), Sum: 140
Base Saves: Fort +10 +3 (Con) = +13
Ref +5 + 1 (Dex) = +6
Will +5 +2 (Iron Will) +2 (Wis) = +9
BAB:+16
Weapon: Great Sword +3
Relevant magic items: Belt of Str +6 (raising Str to 24), Periapt of Wis +2 (raising Wis to 16)
Full Attack: +28/+23/+18/+13 (Great Sword +3, 2d6+17, 17-20, x2, avg. 24 damage)
Full Attack, including PA 5: +23/+18/+13/+8 (Great Sword +3, 2d6+17+10, 17-20, x2, avg. 34 damage)

To sum it up:
The EK is capable of dealing 132 points of damage per round, the fighter comes to 136 points. The fighter needs four hits to achieve this amount of damage, the EK only needs three. No buff spells are involved.
The EK can do that 3 times per day, the fighter as often as long as he is alive. If you use a sorcerer instead of a wizard, the EK can dish out that damage about 10 times per day...
The base saves are almost the same.
The EK has more skill points, the fighter more hit points and feats.
The EK can buff himself, the fighter not. Add-in spells like haste, enlarge person, bull's strength and heroism, and the EK will outclass the fighter. The EK can buff his AC with spells like shield, mage armor and cat's grace (and others), he could use greater invisibility or displacement to improve his AC further...

My impression is that the EK is a fighter with a very good spell support, something that a true fighter has not among his options. So, the fighter needs backup from other persons, the EK is able to "work" alone up to a certain degree.

 

[Brazeku]

Thrallherd is pretty bad.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

My impression is that the EK is a fighter with a very good spell support, something that a true fighter has not among his options. So, the fighter needs backup from other persons, the EK is able to "work" alone up to a certain degree.

Certainly the EK has better spell support than the fighter. But the fighter has d10 hit die and a slew of feats designed to make him a more versatile warrior and last longer.

If the opponents are chosen correctly (High Con opponents - even low AC ones!) and the DM plans encounters properly ... an EK can be forced into retreat much quicker than a typical fighter. Yeah, the EK can use his spells. But when the enemy gets more than one good hit on him the EK typically starts to think retreat. The fighter is just getting started!

Spells are not the be-all and end-all that your analysis suggests. In the realm of combat - especially at mid levels (5-15) feats have much to say about how combat is resolved. Given a melee between a fighter and an EK, I'd probably put my money on the fighter. In general, of course.

I simlpy don't see where the fighter will need support from friends. Usually the ones who need support are the melee guys who have low hitpoints. At that is the EK, not the fighter.

 

[Felix]

What you said about the Radiant Servant may be true about getting everything they get with feats but you get it all without having to. You essentially out Cleric the Cleric. It is all pluses and no minuses. It is too good a deal too. If I ran a cleric which is rare, I would want this.

If it means nothing to you that you must be NG and you must worship Pelor, then Radiant Servant will out-cleric the cleric.

If you don't mind taking the Healing domain and preparing Cure spells in your domain slots to take advantage of your Empower/Maximize Healing abilities, then Radiant Servant will out-cleric the cleric.

If you don't mind having most of your abilities be defensive and restorative in nature, then Radiant Servant will out-cleric the cleric.

There are reasons not to play a Radiant Servant, but this PrC makes the "Party Band-Aid" role more attractive. Which is not a bad thing.