PrCs - which ones are (a bit) over the edge?

[Angerland]

I think you really pulled the punch of the fighter in your last comparison of the two. The feats you picked for a 2 handed weapon fighter are pretty off IMO.

"Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Iron Will, Endurance, Diehard, Quick Draw, Improved Critical (Great Sword)"

to me a fighter is really going to look twice at die hard, iron will, endurance, quickdraw, blind fight, especially when there are things like great cleave, the TWF tree, improved trip etc... to pick from.

 

[Dark Dragon]

If it means nothing to you that you must be NG and you must worship Pelor, then Radiant Servant will out-cleric the cleric.

AFAIK, worshipping Pelor is not a must-have to take the PrC (see description).

If you don't mind taking the Healing domain and preparing Cure spells in your domain slots to take advantage of your Empower/Maximize Healing abilities, then Radiant Servant will out-cleric the cleric.

You don't need the Healing Domain to take the advantage of empower/maximize healing.

If you don't mind having most of your abilities be defensive and restorative in nature, then Radiant Servant will out-cleric the cleric.

There are reasons not to play a Radiant Servant, but this PrC makes the "Party Band-Aid" role more attractive. Which is not a bad thing.

Umm, the Sun domain is somewhat offensive (Sunburst and others). Granted, it is usable only once per day, but the cleric is not truly weak in offensive powers (Implosion, Flame Strike, Searing Light, Harm, Hold Person, Destruction, self-buffs...).

EDIT: typo...

 

[Dark Dragon]

I think you really pulled the punch of the fighter in your last comparison of the two. The feats you picked for a 2 handed weapon fighter are pretty off IMO.

"Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Iron Will, Endurance, Diehard, Quick Draw, Improved Critical (Great Sword)"

to me a fighter is really going to look twice at die hard, iron will, endurance, quickdraw, blind fight, especially when there are things like great cleave, the TWF tree, improved trip etc... to pick from.

Depends. From my experience, Iron Will is a must-have for fighters. A confused fighter is a serious threat for the party, a paralyzed fighter is almost dead...
Blind-Fight is good versus invisible foes which may be encountered from level 3 on. And it helps in dark areas as well.
Quick Draw is nice when the fighter's initiative is low and foes have already closed-in for melee combat (1 attack vs. a full attack).
Endurance and Diehard: Since the fighter is in the frontline of combat, it could be nice to do something even at negative hp. Have seen that quite often for the melee types.

If you choose the TWF tree, either your Str or Con value is lower than for a non-TWF guy, because you need a quite high Dex...Or you take low Cha, Wis or Int stats which may affect saves and skills.

 

[wayne62682]

Planar Shepherd isn't just over the edge, it's so far past the edge that you have to use binoculars to see it. You can get in as a straight Druid and it offers full casting progression (I think, maybe 9/10) but here's the kicker: You pick a plane that you're tied to and you can Wildshape into outsiders from that plane at 9th level of the class and get the ability to use all of their extraordinary, supernatural and spell-like abilities. So pick Fernia (Plane of Fire) and you can wildshape into an Efrit (Efreet? what's the singular of Efreeti?) and grant Wishes to people (depending on interpretation of the rules it may not work on yourself, but you can always give it to others). At 14th level (Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 9)! If you take Shavarath you can wildshape into basically any solar, devil or demon (as they're all native to that plane).

But it gets worse! You also get a bubble (40' radius) that has qualities of the Plane you choose (in effect the radius around you functions as though beings were on that plane). So choose Dal Quor (the plane of Dreams) and you have a permanent 40' Time Stop (1 round outside the bubble = 10 rounds inside the bubble). Xoriat is even worse, since I think its 1 round outside is 1 MINUTE inside the bubble. Mabar I think forces everything in that radius to make will saves or basically die and lose all coherant form and thought).

Planar Shepherd is, in effect, the most broken PrC ever. It takes arguably the most powerful class in the game and gives it super-powers on top of that for no cost.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Whoa, that sounds... er... nice??? What's the source for this PrC?

 

[wayne62682]

Whoa, that sounds... er... nice??? What's the source for this PrC?

Faiths of Eberron. As much as I like to think WotC does try checks and balances.. I really wonder if this was playtested at all. Unless myself and the CO boards are completely misreading how it works (doubtful).

 

[Felix]

AFAIK, worshipping Pelor is not a must-have to take the PrC (see description).

Nah, it's "Special: Must have Pelor as patron deity." under the pre-reqs.

You don't need the Healing Domain to take the advantage of empower/maximize healing.

Empower Healing (Ex)
When a radiant servant of Pelor of at least 2nd level casts a domain spell from the Healing domain, that spell is affected as though by the Empower Spell feat. This spell does not use up a higher-level slot.​

A domain spell is one of those X+1 spells. So only those healing spells that are cast from the domain slot are affected by this ability. Which means that in order to take advantage of Empower/Maximize/Supreme Healing, you not only have to take the Healing domain, but you also have to prepare healing spells in your domain slots.

Some folks argue that "casts a domain spell from the Healing domain" means that any time that spell is cast from any slot this ability comes into play. Ironically, these folks often consider the Radiant Servant to be overpowered. *Shrug*.

I suggest that the difference between "casts a domain spell from the Healing domain" and "casts a domain spell from the Healing domain" is signifigant. Which means that if the Radiant Servant wants to use his Empower/Maximize/Supreme Healing, he needs the Healing domain.

Umm, the Sun domain is somewhat offensive (Sunburst and others). Granted, it is usable only once per day, but the cleric is not truly weak in offensive powers (Implosion, Flame Strike, Searing Light, Harm, Hold Person, Destruction, self-buffs...).

EDIT: typo...

No, the cleric isn't weak in offensive powers, but the Radiant Servant by way of its abilities encourages the defensive and restorative abilities of the cleric over those offensive abilities it has. The exception to this is its increased effectiveness against undead. So you're a better Party Band-Aid, and you're more effective against undead; the first is defensive and the second is situational and DM-controlled.

So if you want to play the traditional role of healer and undead-fighter, this is a great PrC for you. If you want to do anything else with your cleric, this PrC doesn't really help. And what is so unbalancing about having a PrC that makes clerics better healers? Specifically, clerics of the God of Healing?

 

[Dark Dragon]

Nah, it's "Special: Must have Pelor as patron deity." under the pre-reqs.

True, but check the paragraph above the prerequesites: Adaption...

Empower Healing (Ex)
When a radiant servant of Pelor of at least 2nd level casts a domain spell from the Healing domain, that spell is affected as though by the Empower Spell feat. This spell does not use up a higher-level slot.​

A domain spell is one of those X+1 spells. So only those healing spells that are cast from the domain slot are affected by this ability. Which means that in order to take advantage of Empower/Maximize/Supreme Healing, you not only have to take the Healing domain, but you also have to prepare healing spells in your domain slots.

Some folks argue that "casts a domain spell from the Healing domain" means that any time that spell is cast from any slot this ability comes into play. Ironically, these folks often consider the Radiant Servant to be overpowered. *Shrug*.

I suggest that the difference between "casts a domain spell from the Healing domain" and "casts a domain spell from the Healing domain" is signifigant. Which means that if the Radiant Servant wants to use his Empower/Maximize/Supreme Healing, he needs the Healing domain.

Hmm, I have to agree on this one...

No, the cleric isn't weak in offensive powers, but the Radiant Servant by way of its abilities encourages the defensive and restorative abilities of the cleric over those offensive abilities it has. The exception to this is its increased effectiveness against undead. So you're a better Party Band-Aid, and you're more effective against undead; the first is defensive and the second is situational and DM-controlled.

So if you want to play the traditional role of healer and undead-fighter, this is a great PrC for you. If you want to do anything else with your cleric, this PrC doesn't really help. And what is so unbalancing about having a PrC that makes clerics better healers? Specifically, clerics of the God of Healing?

The problem remains that the PrC has no real drawbacks. A standard cleric with the sun and healing domains and the same feats as the RSP (including extra & empower turning, maximise healing) is still weaker as the RSP because he doesn't get a bonus domain, positive energy burst, aura of warding, divine health and special metamagiced spells.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

If you don't mind having most of your abilities be defensive and restorative in nature, then Radiant Servant will out-cleric the cleric.

There are reasons not to play a Radiant Servant, but this PrC makes the "Party Band-Aid" role more attractive. Which is not a bad thing.

Here-here! Beautiful post!

Ever since the RSoP came out I have heard whine after whine about how it out-clerics the cleric. Funny thing is, I've never had one in play. I've never played one, and as often as I DM I've never even had a player think about going into RSoP.

If it is so broken, why do I never see one in play? Well, largely because becoming a RSoP implies that you are taking up the band-aid role. You want your spells to be used for healing. You want to be goody-goody and sappy about healing people. And most players don't want to take up the role. Mechanically, RSoP gets much more than it gives away.As far as the party role, roleplaying, etc the RSoP takes away much more than it receives.

I do think that RSoP is not broken simply because only a very narrow niche of characters would think about taking it - those who gt a kick out of healing others. And in my experience, that role is not often taken up eagerly. There are some out there who love the role, but not the majority, certainly!

 

[Felix]

True, but check the paragraph above the prerequesites: Adaption...

Fair enough. But the Adaptation paragraph says that it can stand in for any god of the Sun. So you're still talking about a NG Pelor-placeholder-God cleric.

The problem remains that the PrC has no real drawbacks. A standard cleric with the sun and healing domains and the same feats as the RSP (including extra & empower turning, maximise healing) is still weaker as the RSP because he doesn't get a bonus domain, positive energy burst, aura of warding, divine health and special metamagiced spells.

The drawback is what it makes more effective: healing and undead turning. Healing won't break a game, but the way the RSoP makes it more effective is encourage you to take the Healing Domain, one of the weakest domains, and use your domain slots, the source of cleric variation, to prepare Cure spells, which any cleric can spontaneously cast.

As for undead, yes: the RSoP is more of an undead-whacker than your standard cleric. This ability is wholly dependent upon the DM and his placement of undead as opponents. It gives the RSoP some independant offensive capability since the Healing aspect is used at an opportunity cost of preparing other domain spells.

It's a well constructed class.